Philosophy Now Forum

Egypt has no hope of becoming a democratic society without secularism, where people of all stripes and beliefs have a hope of being treated equally. The chances of secularism (which also includes the separation and sharing of power) taking hold there in the near future is remote. But in the far future it is possible. But a lot of social upheaval and violence is going to have to occur first, like happened in Europe over the centuries.

True and lasting democracy is impossible without secularism. If Egypt was a country of only one religion then secularism would not be a problem, because everybody would be of one mind and of one culture, wanting the same thing. In the West we have managed to develop a culture of inclusion and multiculturalism, where different ideas reconcile and coexist with each other. But Egypt and most of the Muslim/Arab world do not understand this culture. It is not in their blood, or DNA. They are still tribal. A major belief that continues to persist in this world, among tribes, is that either one rules or dies at the hands of another. Power sharing among tribes or political parties is not an option or a component, such as it is in the West.

If Morsi, the deposed president of Egypt, acted secular and shared power with his opponents he would still be president. His followers say he was democratically elected so he should still be in office and not have been removed by the military. But he certainly didn't acted democratically in office. He consolidate power within his own tribe and like minded supporters. Democracy doesn't work that way. One problem is that even though Morsi was elected democratically the institutions to backup and uphold the democracy people voted for didn't exist to insure or implement it.

Egypt is still a closed society, not open to the majority. Until it begins to open up to all Democracy is out of the question.

Democracy is just one step above mob rule, and without a constitution of human rights, democracy in itself is worthless.

Is there a Secular Government anywhere?

The British Government state religion is the belief in Whiteness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism

bobevenson wrote:Democracy is just one step above mob rule, and without a constitution of human rights, democracy in itself is worthless.

Study Democracy and you will understand that it is not worthless.

bobevenson wrote:Democracy is just one step above mob rule, and without a constitution of human rights, democracy in itself is worthless.

We have to Racialise the mob and let each division be Governed by the system that best suits their nature / nurture.

Does that make sense?

Can we all agree?

"Study Democracy and you will understand that it is not worthless."

Not only worthless, but harmful...not a just step above mob rule, democracy 'is' mob rule.

I see no compelling reason why I should turn over the reins of my living to other folks, letting 'them' decide what is or is not appropriate for 'me', supposedly in service to the 'greater good' (or the simple majority)

How exactly is the 'greater good' (or, simple majority) my concern?

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"We have to Racialise the mob and let each division be Governed by the system that best suits their nature / nurture."

Better idea: leave folks alone and let them -- as individuals and groups of individuals -- decide how they wish to organize themselves.

'Racializing' is just another iteration of the crap we got runnin' now (folks tellin' other folks 'how it should be').

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As for Egypt: 'America' needs to mind its own business and let those people do as they will.

As expect, the discussion has taken on a juvenile quality.

henry quirk wrote:"

"We have to Racialise the mob and let each division be Governed by the system that best suits their nature / nurture."

Better idea: leave folks alone and let them -- as individuals and groups of individuals -- decide how they wish to organize themselves.

'Racializing' is just another iteration of the crap we got runnin' now (folks tellin' other folks 'how it should be').

#

Individualism is chaos.

spike wrote:

bobevenson wrote:Democracy is just one step above mob rule, and without a constitution of human rights, democracy in itself is worthless.

Study Democracy and you will understand that it is not worthless.

Let me tell you something, Spike, if Muslims became the dominant force in U.S. politics, sharia law would prevail under democracy, and the rest of us would have to flee from America. I beg to differ with you, my friend, but you're the one who needs to study oppression under the worthless democracy I described.

Let me tell you something, Spike, if Muslims became the dominant force in U.S. politics, sharia law would prevail under democracy, and the rest of us would have to flee from America. I beg to differ with you, my friend, but you're the one who needs to study oppression under the worthless democracy I described.

Indeed, you did describe a worthless democracy. Democracy like anything else is worthless and meaningless if it doesn't interact with outer institutions. This was the problem with Morsi's democracy. It remained isolated unto itself. Democracy functions best with opposition and criticism, something Morsi tried to eradicate. For democracy to function properly it needs many masters. With Morsi there was only one master and the hell with the rest.

Muslims or sharia law will never become the dominant force in US politics are in any other democracy. That is what real and true democracies stand up against, that kind of authoritarianism and dictatorship.

One has to remember that democracy is more than just about voting. It is also about independent institutions that protect people's rights and freedom.

"Individualism is chaos."

No, 'individualism' is hooey.

An individual, on the other hand, certainly can be chaotic.

Best to round each of 'em up 'now' before any one of 'em gets on with committin' anarchic shenanigans.

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"It is also about independent institutions that protect people's rights and freedom."

As long as each of those people does as told (or, operates within what is acceptable [to those in charge]).

henry,

That little caveman is coming out in you.

spike wrote:Egypt has no hope of becoming a democratic society without secularism, where people of all stripes and beliefs have a hope of being treated equally. The chances of secularism (which also includes the separation and sharing of power) taking hold there in the near future is remote. But in the far future it is possible. But a lot of social upheaval and violence is going to have to occur first, like happened in Europe over the centuries.

True and lasting democracy is impossible without secularism. If Egypt was a country of only one religion then secularism would not be a problem, because everybody would be of one mind and of one culture, wanting the same thing. In the West we have managed to develop a culture of inclusion and multiculturalism, where different ideas reconcile and coexist with each other. But Egypt and most of the Muslim/Arab world do not understand this culture. It is not in their blood, or DNA. They are still tribal. A major belief that continues to persist in this world, among tribes, is that either one rules or dies at the hands of another. Power sharing among tribes or political parties is not an option or a component, such as it is in the West.

If Morsi, the deposed president of Egypt, acted secular and shared power with his opponents he would still be president. His followers say he was democratically elected so he should still be in office and not have been removed by the military. But he certainly didn't acted democratically in office. He consolidate power within his own tribe and like minded supporters. Democracy doesn't work that way. One problem is that even though Morsi was elected democratically the institutions to backup and uphold the democracy people voted for didn't exist to insure or implement it.

Egypt is still a closed society, not open to the majority. Until it begins to open up to all Democracy is out of the question.

I agree with some of what you have said ,
I posted here when they first blew up that I thought it was just an attempt by the muslim brotherhood ,
to muscle their way into power ,
and now that they have won an election , supposedly fair and democratic ,
they have the righteous claim now to be able to kill them all ,
they are/were they government , it's legally possible .
BUT ,, I would like to challenge one statement ,,,
"in the west we have managed to develop a culture of inclusion"
WRONG , we have managed to develop our own religious dictatorship ,
our flavour of madness is christianity , and they are muslims ,
equally as insane , inclusion ,,, bullshit ,
just ask your government how many billions go into the church and religion ,
and then compare it to the ZERO funding that Atheism gets ,
inclusion , , what a load of crap ,,!!!!

HA!

He's been out (of his [my] cage) for a long, long, time...