Philosophy Now Forum

Hello,
My name is Mark; I'm former art student and avid reader of philosophy.. currently involved in conversations with my peers in the belief in fate. Well my fate is in your hands as I find no positive aspet in such a belief anyone fancy a challenge to the contray.

markopolo wrote:Hello,
My name is Mark; I'm former art student and avid reader of philosophy.. currently involved in conversations with my peers in the belief in fate. Well my fate is in your hands as I find no positive aspet in such a belief anyone fancy a challenge to the contray.

Hello Mark, welcome to the Philosophy Now forum. I've no idea whether there is any such thing as fate. In philosophical terms there are (at least) two things to consider: 1. Is the universe deterministic? In other words, does everything happen for reasons that can be understood and predicted? 2. Does the same apply to our consciousness? In other words do we have free will?
I'm not that bothered, but I do think that if our destiny is determined by physics, it is theoretically possible to calculate our next actions, to tell us what we are about to do and for us to be powerless to do otherwise. It would be weird, but I can't help thinking most people would have the capacity to say no. Perhaps I was destined to think so.

The positive aspect of belief in fate is that it gives you willpower.

The negative aspect is that it makes you ignore important stuff about it.

markopolo wrote:Hello,
My name is Mark; I'm former art student and avid reader of philosophy.. currently involved in conversations with my peers in the belief in fate. Well my fate is in your hands as I find no positive aspet in such a belief anyone fancy a challenge to the contray.

There is no such thing as fate, as if anything is predetermined, as far as the heading of ones life goes. Everyone is free to steer their own ship, they choose their heading. Speed is determined by need/desire, learning curve/the ability to understand both, what is needed to achieve the desired results, and the why of the needed results; the dynamics involved, if you will, of interplay.

Oh, and pardon me for forgetting, getting old, surely...

Welcome!

I don't understand how willpower fits in with fate as any fixed point is fated by its very nature. There are social and genetic predispositions which may steer a person in to certain directions with no clear outcomes ; but surely the material world and the chaos at play undermine any possible clear concept of fate. In addition many that believe in fate, also believe in a higher power at work. Nothing positive there I feel.

markopolo wrote:I don't understand how willpower fits in with fate as any fixed point is fated by its very nature. There are social and genetic predispositions which may steer a person in to certain directions with no clear outcomes ; but surely the material world and the chaos at play undermine any possible clear concept of fate. In addition many that believe in fate, also believe in a higher power at work. Nothing positive there I feel.

Lets define the term:

fate [feyt] noun, verb, fat·ed, fat·ing.
noun
1. something that unavoidably befalls a person; fortune; lot: It is always his fate to be left behind.
2. the universal principle or ultimate agency by which the order of things is presumably prescribed; the decreed cause of events; time: Fate decreed that they would never meet again.
3. that which is inevitably predetermined; destiny: Death is our ineluctable fate.
4. a prophetic declaration of what must be: The oracle pronounced their fate.
5. death, destruction, or ruin.
6. the Fates, Classical Mythology . the three goddesses of destiny, known to the Greeks as the Moerae and to the Romans as the Parcae.
verb (used with object)
7. to predetermine, as by the decree of fate; destine (used in the passive): a person who was fated to be the savior of the country.

So, does one meet their fate, by being killed due to their walking in a known violent neighborhood, while they could have made a rule, not to ever do that? Is it not Free Will to make such a rule? Could you then say that it would have definitely happened anyway, at the same time, where ever they were? Do you really believe in those movies, Final Destination?

You speak of genetics, are you familiar with epigenetics?

You seem to be arguing both sides of the issue.

markopolo wrote:I don't understand how willpower fits in with fate as any fixed point is fated by its very nature. There are social and genetic predispositions which may steer a person in to certain directions with no clear outcomes ; but surely the material world and the chaos at play undermine any possible clear concept of fate. In addition many that believe in fate, also believe in a higher power at work. Nothing positive there I feel.

You mistake fate for determination. Fate is mungo jumbo spiritual (that is, religious) stuff. Fate was originally a heathen goddess.

To say that something specific happens in the future at a specific point is to talk about the determination of things. Fate on the other hand is more in the way of constructing a story whose conclusion predetermines what is gonna happen. For instance a friend of mine was really good at playing football is fated to become a professional football player. In deterministic thinking there would be a lot of wrong with that assumption, however, that assumption can give somebody the willpower to drive themselves into becoming a professional football player.

So I'd say willpower has a lot of effect, it's a very real case that people like to portray themselves as being something, finding evidence for their belonging to that "destination", and then striving to realize that same thing. To find people who are totally obsessed is less often, but I'd wager a lot of people sometime in their life will become driven strongly by a sense of fate, whether it's romance, collective action (think army or political party or the likes) or individual fate (realize yourself in a profession).

In my opener I said I see nothing positive about a belief in fate....I see many positive aspects in willpower or a determination to achieve. Having gained success dont we regonize our hard work. I agree fate being about a narrative; some belief in a master plan, that we are powerless to alter. I'm simply saying such a belief is flawed. History shows many a misguided polititian who felt fated to archive; normally by killing loads of people. I don't know what football equivelant of that would be?

markopolo wrote:In my opener I said I see nothing positive about a belief in fate....I see many positive aspects in willpower or a determination to achieve. Having gained success dont we regonize our hard work. I agree fate being about a narrative; some belief in a master plan, that we are powerless to alter. I'm simply saying such a belief is flawed. History shows many a misguided polititian who felt fated to archive; normally by killing loads of people. I don't know what football equivelant of that would be?

Because fate can have bad results doesn't make it bad. Most things can have bad results, an orange or an apple can make you choke, but we don't call it the "choking fruit" for that sake or label it as a bad fruit. I think fate is an important part of our lives, as it weaves sense into a world it's hard to put sense into.

Being uncertain all the time can be a hazard, it'd be nice to just be certain sometimes, have a touch of fate with oneself. The problem is usually when one starts attaching oneself and ones sense of fate to something that one can very easily loose, and therefore can very quickly cost one a lot to ascertain a claim about. Like physical property (money, land, car, aircraft, boat) or metaphysical property (honour, titles, love, and so forth). Giving rise to a chance of putting oneself in debt or at a loss (loosing the chance to be with your kid in their youth, loosing a chance to be with your spouse or girl-/boyfriend or friends, loosing the means to be with them and socialize with them, the experience of jail or poverty or dishonour).

I think your second paragraph is key and illustrate my point....when things go wrong, fate offers nothing but a flawed view of the now. Though I agree totally with your early view it being 'Mumbo Jumbo'

Welcome Markopolo,

You've given up on the belief in fate. That's a great first impression.

Not given up! Just never believed in it full stop lol

fiveredapples wrote:Welcome Markopolo,

You've given up on the belief in fate. That's a great first impression.

What? How sad isn't it with a person who doesn't give their life a destination to reach? There's nothing great about it. Fate is an integral part of our lives and fulfils it, to live in uncertainty is not a pleasant thing, and fate gives us escape from that. Only bad thing about fate is a bad appropriation of it, but with us, it should always be in one form or the other, or truly, it would be very sad without.

What? How sad isn't it with a person who doesn't give their life a destination to reach?

You don't have to believe in fate to give yourself goals. In fact, believing in fate would be more consistent with never giving yourself any goals.

fiveredapples wrote:

What? How sad isn't it with a person who doesn't give their life a destination to reach?

You don't have to believe in fate to give yourself goals. In fact, believing in fate would be more consistent with never giving yourself any goals.

No, that's prejudice, if you refer to people who think that things come by themselves.

I wasn't talking about goals. I was talking about living a life. To have goals but never be certain that you'll reach them is terror to your mind. As I said, it's not a pleasant life to live in constant uncertainty, and so to fulfil it, we need such things as fate.