Philosophy Now Forum

Any one here willing to defend this statement?

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You are right in my eyes.



...if I am understanding you correctly.



So...I am, defending that statement.






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No, Bill: you agree with the statement...not the same as defending it...if you wanna defend K's statement please explain how "We are, as a species, collectively guilty of atrocities".

I say "We are, as a species, collectively guilty of atrocities" is horseshit.

If Henry Quirk kills five folks in an office, rapes three women in the park, kicks seven ducks out by the lake, steals five bucks from a kid, If Henry Quirk does these things, how are you, Bill Wiltrack, responsible?

More generally: how are any of the roughly seven billions folks millin' about on the planet responsible for what Henry Quirk does?

Let's say Henry gets a'hold of a virulent bug and releases it into a municipal water system....30,000 folks die...are you responsible for Henry's crime? Are any of the roughly seven billion millin' about responsible?

I say Henry's the culprit...not you and not the other roughly seven billion.

How, Bill, CAN you be responsible for what I've done?

Are you my keeper?

If you believe so: how do you justify such a belief?

just a thought...

collective guilt...

one treats mosquitoes as if they are all collectively guilty of biting someone...

this individual mosquito has not bitten anyone, he is completely innocent -

innocence is no excuse

splat...

-Imp

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Yeah, people are shits.


I am a person.




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Imp,

'Mosquito' and 'human individual' are not synonymous, not interchangeable.

If any mosquito disagrees, I'd be glad to discuss the matter with him, her, or it.

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Bill,

"people are shits"

No doubt.

However, I prefer to be judged on my own particular and peculiar brand of shittiness, not yours and -- certainly -- not K's.

henry quirk wrote:Imp,

'Mosquito' and 'human individual' are not synonymous, not interchangeable.

If any mosquito disagrees, I'd be glad to discuss the matter with him, her, or it.

...

it's just a matter of perspective for the herd

-Imp

Herd?

-uwot

henry quirk wrote:...I prefer to be judged on my own particular and peculiar brand of shittiness, not yours and -- certainly -- not K's.

Quite right too. I thought the idea that we are all sinners was confined to religious nutters.

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At times there is a horror being human. Just shear horror.



...of what we are capable of.


...of what we do.





Collectively, we must take responsibility.



We must accept the horror...yeah...we are all guilty. Whether we have committed atrocities yet or not.




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Bill Wiltrack wrote:At times there is a horror being human. Just shear horror.
...of what we are capable of....of what we do.

What we are capable of and what we do, are two different things. If you want to horrify yourself by imagining what could happen, maybe you should write a book; Stephen King, for example, has done very nicely out of it. Save your genuine horror for what some people do in some circumstances.

Bill Wiltrack wrote:Collectively, we must take responsibility.

Depends what you mean by taking responsibility. If you mean share in the guilt of nutters who actually do horrific things, then the attitude of most people is that it is either indulgent self flagellation or a failure to take responsibility for your own guilt by palming it off on other people who have done nothing wrong.
On the other hand, if by taking responsibility you mean taking action, if only by voting for candidates who best represent your values, most people would agree. One of the roles of democracy is to enable the majority to keep checks on lunatics who are mental enough to do the things we are all physically capable of, but generally refrain from, because we are not that mental.

Bill Wiltrack wrote:We must accept the horror...yeah...we are all guilty. Whether we have committed atrocities yet or not.

Whatever you have done, it is your responsibility. It was nothing to do with me. 'Yet' is inappropriate; 'if' I commit an atrocity, it will because I have lost my marbles and I am confident that society will have the good sense to lock me up until I am no longer a threat to anyone else.

"there is a horror being human"

Yep.

So what?

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"Collectively, we must take responsibility."

Nope.

I'll pay for my sins and crimes (if I'm caught!)

You, Bill, go atone for yours.

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What I'm saying is we are all sinners. Or whatever verb you want to use...like guilty for example.

We are, collectively guilty of atrocities committed by mankind...



The title of this thread is;

~~~ We are, as a species, collectively guilty of atrocities ~~~



I will not demean you by arguing that you are responsible for any individual act that I may commit. To tale-up that argument would be ridiculous.



When you say WE...


as a SPECIES...you are framing your argument, as you say, COLLECTIVELY.

It's simple.


I am here and...

I am one person here willing to defend this statement.




Any one here willing to defend this statement?

Yes. Yes I defended that statement.






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henry quirk wrote:Imp,

'Mosquito' and 'human individual' are not synonymous, not interchangeable.

...

3oth fit into the category of 'life-form'. 7hese rules of judgement can be applied to any life-form no matter which side of the argument they are on.

More importantly, now that you have defined "collective guilt" it does seem a bit illogical. 7o what extent would this collectiveness go? Humans only, or could objects with human characteristics also be included?

I came to this thread because I've made many wrong decisions in my life. I could be a nicer person. If I think about it too much I end up telling myself that I may be bad, but I could be worse. So at least I'm nice in comparison to the people that are more evil than me.

Perhaps if I think about this some more, I'll find some reason behind collective guilt.

Bill,

This -- We are, as a species, collectively guilty of atrocities. -- belongs to K and is -- I think -- an indefensible piece of hooey.

He believes this (as do you)...both of you claim it as a 'fact' but neither of you has offered any evidence to support the claim (that is: neither of you has defended the claim).

As I assess myself: I find a discrete, organic, on-going, recursive, phenomena (a self, an individual) unconnected (except as I choose) to any of the other seven billion individuals living around me.

Not a one of those others is my master or keeper (and I am not theirs)...not a one of those others is responsible for me (and I am not responsible for them).

So...

I resist all efforts to place on me burdens I did not earn or ask for.

I resist all efforts to force me to accept a (self) definition or descriptor that is not my own.

To accept an absurdity (being human makes me responsible for the actions of all humans) is opening the door to another absurdity (I should accept punishment for my humanity, for simply existing).

No, I will not participate in such hooey.

Now, you, Bill, may do as you like...take upon your shoulders all the sins of the world...drink the Hemlock...willingly bear the cross made for you by others.

How you expend yourself in the world is your affair.

I choose a different road.

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206UE,

"Perhaps if I think about this some more, I'll find some reason behind collective guilt."

Like Bill (or any one), you can do as you like, however: rather than look for communitarian reasons to self-flagellate, it might be (as K would say) 'more fruitful' to simply see yourself and the world as you and 'it' are.