Philosophy Now Forum

i am under 21 but that does not prevent me from consuming alcohol from time to time

my great aunt and uncle take the Calvinist / Kantian view that we must obey the law - no matter how unreasonable - as long as the law does not require us to do anything morally wrong

it is not morally wrong to not drink when you are under 21 - so I must not drink - the fact that the law is unreasonable (which they believe it to be) is not an relevant consideration here

but it is morally wrong to kill people without an overwhelmingly good reason - so refusing to serve in the military is often morally justifiable. in principle, war can be just, but in practice vast majority of wars do not pass St. Thomas Aquinas ' just war' test

out of respect for my elders I do not drink alcohol in their presence but I do have a beer or a shot of tequila from time to time (alcohol in any other form tastes overwhelmingly gross to me)


what are your thoughts?

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In Norway legal drinking age is 18.

21 is way above the top. Can't go around treating adults as if they were children.

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yeah its best to avoid flaming drinks

Kayla wrote:i am under 21 but that does not prevent me from consuming alcohol from time to time

my great aunt and uncle take the Calvinist / Kantian view that we must obey the law - no matter how unreasonable - as long as the law does not require us to do anything morally wrong

it is not morally wrong to not drink when you are under 21 - so I must not drink - the fact that the law is unreasonable (which they believe it to be) is not an relevant consideration here

but it is morally wrong to kill people without an overwhelmingly good reason - so refusing to serve in the military is often morally justifiable. in principle, war can be just, but in practice vast majority of wars do not pass St. Thomas Aquinas ' just war' test

out of respect for my elders I do not drink alcohol in their presence but I do have a beer or a shot of tequila from time to time (alcohol in any other form tastes overwhelmingly gross to me)


what are your thoughts?

I see that underage drinking is not as important a consideration as underage drunking! (Pardon my fictitious word)
I am not saying one should break the law. I am just outlining the laws true concern, which is that of allowing a substance to alter ones abilities, either physically and/or mentally, such that it leads to anyone's pain or misfortune. This then, is the laws primary concern. Responsibility, is always key, in terms of anything! A person has to know their limitations, and the law figures that life's lessons up to the age of 21 are sufficient, as a mean, to ensure that is the case, in terms of the mind/body altering alcohol.

In my family, they believed that it was OK to allow someone underage to consume minute quantities of alcohol, especially wine, at a dinner setting, as long as constant supervision of those underage, while experiencing the effects, was maintained. This was to allow for exposure and thus learning about alcohol, such that at the age of 21, one wouldn't over indulge, the first time out. Also so as to include those showing responsibility, so as to actually lend to it. Where/when I grew up they had two types of beer, one was watered down to 3.2% alcohol, and was allowed to be consumed by all over the age of 18. The other was 6% alcohol, and was reserved for those over 21.

And yes, I agree with your argument, that those that are allowed to serve in the US military, and thus be subject to being killed, and to kill, (for the right reason?), which used to be, at the age of 17, with signature by the parents, should also be allowed to take their lives in their own hands, in terms of alcohol. But would anyone really want to be guilty of taking an innocent life, due to the inability to control themselves, as a result of what's supposed to be in the spirit of partying and having fun, due to the consumption of alcohol?

Talk about sobering affects... And one could never make it right, ever... Many, of true caring and concern, could only kill themselves, one way or another...

its not like its difficult to get alcohol if you are under 21

for a while in high school my friends and i though we were being clever sneaking beer into one of our basements while adults where not looking and drinking it and giggling like idiots

well it turns out that all the parents knew - and as long as they knew where we were and there were no boys present they pretended to not know (mixing boys and alcohol is a bad idea anyway)

Kayla wrote:its not like its difficult to get alcohol if you are under 21

Bad argument. One should show open resistance to the law. It's a bad law. As I said: you can't treat adults like kids, it's insulting.

Kayla wrote:its not like its difficult to get alcohol if you are under 21

for a while in high school my friends and i though we were being clever sneaking beer into one of our basements while adults where not looking and drinking it and giggling like idiots

well it turns out that all the parents knew - and as long as they knew where we were and there were no boys present they pretended to not know (mixing boys and alcohol is a bad idea anyway)

There would seem to be a tacit acceptance of drinking under the age of twenty-one. If you lived in a society that really thought it wrong to drink under this age, such behaviour would be challenged. It is natural for young people to dabble in illegal behaviour in order to find out where the true limits of acceptable behaviour lie. The location of these limits can shift over time as society's values change. It looks like either your society has become more relaxed about alcohol over time, or those parents are more relaxed than society in general, or perhaps your society always has deliberately allowed for a period in young people's lives in which they are given the thrill of transgression without actually doing anything society finds unacceptable.

Here in Britain, there is a popular radio panel game called The Unbelievable Truth. Each panelist gives a short comical lecture consisting of lies in amongst which are smuggled five(?) truths. The other competitors try to spot the truths. A common tactic is to declare, "In the American state of... it is illegal to..." There are so many bizarre laws in America it's very difficult to guess whether such a declaration is true or false.

Dunce wrote:

Kayla wrote:its not like its difficult to get alcohol if you are under 21

for a while in high school my friends and i though we were being clever sneaking beer into one of our basements while adults where not looking and drinking it and giggling like idiots

well it turns out that all the parents knew - and as long as they knew where we were and there were no boys present they pretended to not know (mixing boys and alcohol is a bad idea anyway)

There would seem to be a tacit acceptance of drinking under the age of twenty-one. If you lived in a society that really thought it wrong to drink under this age, such behaviour would be challenged. It is natural for young people to dabble in illegal behaviour in order to find out where the true limits of acceptable behaviour lie. The location of these limits can shift over time as society's values change. It looks like either your society has become more relaxed about alcohol over time, or those parents are more relaxed than society in general, or perhaps your society always has deliberately allowed for a period in young people's lives in which they are given the thrill of transgression without actually doing anything society finds unacceptable.

Here in Britain, there is a popular radio panel game called The Unbelievable Truth. Each panelist gives a short comical lecture consisting of lies in amongst which are smuggled five(?) truths. The other competitors try to spot the truths. A common tactic is to declare, "In the American state of... it is illegal to..." There are so many bizarre laws in America it's very difficult to guess whether such a declaration is true or false.

I'm an American, and that's probably true.

Kayla wrote: my great aunt and uncle take the Calvinist / Kantian view that we must obey the law - no matter how unreasonable - as long as the law does not require us to do anything morally wrong

it is not morally wrong to not drink when you are under 21 - so I must not drink - the fact that the law is unreasonable (which they believe it to be) is not an relevant consideration here

You could argue that it is morally wrong for you to abstain from alcohol if your peers are all (in theory illegally) using alcohol as a social lubricant. You would be left out, become socially isolated and miss out on developing the social skills that are so important for responsible citizenship. You might even become so desperate for social interaction as to frequent whacky internet forums populated by other social misfits, attempting to promote all sorts of perverse and dangerous ideas.

SpheresOfBalance wrote:

Dunce wrote:Here in Britain, there is a popular radio panel game called The Unbelievable Truth. Each panelist gives a short comical lecture consisting of lies in amongst which are smuggled five(?) truths. The other competitors try to spot the truths. A common tactic is to declare, "In the American state of... it is illegal to..." There are so many bizarre laws in America it's very difficult to guess whether such a declaration is true or false.

I'm an American, and that's probably true.

To be fair, a lot of a lot of those laws are mythical or deliberately taken out of context for comic effect...
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/rea ... t-for-real

Dunce wrote:There would seem to be a tacit acceptance of drinking under the age of twenty-one.

a lot of people do take it seriously unfortunately

It looks like either your society has become more relaxed about alcohol over time, or those parents are more relaxed than society in general, or perhaps your society always has deliberately allowed for a period in young people's lives in which they are given the thrill of transgression without actually doing anything society finds unacceptable.

my parents are a lot saner than a lot of texans which is a scary statement

i know a lot of people would have found their approach shocking and some would have called the authorities

Here in Britain, there is a popular radio panel game called The Unbelievable Truth. Each panelist gives a short comical lecture consisting of lies in amongst which are smuggled five(?) truths. The other competitors try to spot the truths. A common tactic is to declare, "In the American state of... it is illegal to..." There are so many bizarre laws in America it's very difficult to guess whether such a declaration is true or false.

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i have no trouble believing this

i am in the processes of acquainting myself with laws dealing with agriculture and they are an unbelievable clusterfuck

just came across this

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/uv ... 04442.html

To be honest, I'm not quite sure who hasn't drank under the age. I know I did when I was under 21, so I have not right to judge anyone who has.

Though I believe now a days that many kids are starting to drink a lot earlier in age than just their teens.

My mother never said don't do it, just to never get caught doing it. She didn't buy any of it but of course I had my way around that problem.