Philosophy Now Forum

Why would a big country like the U.S support a theocratic regime in Egypt or anywhere on earth?

Is it the true support to democracy , the idea of respecting democratic elections or the sanctity of vote? Were there deals and benefits made? What if the Muslim brotherhood never believed in democracy as their history shows? What about their tyrannical actions during the period of 360 days which led millions of angry protesters out to the streets again ? Why do the U.S and European Union ignore the millions of protesters (More than 30 millions as estimated by the CNN) ?

I think the U.S wanted a theocratic Islamic regime in control in a country near Israel , because Israel is a theocratic state in the first place constructed as a Jewish nation , and it would be a beneficial thing to be neighboring another theocratic Islamic state and pictured some day as a small country surrounded by big threats and terrorism .
Did they want Egypt to lead a Sunni league against the Shiaa state of Iran to balance the scale ? Maybe.

Anyway what I'm sure of is that they knew the muslim brotherhood wouldn't lead Egypt to anywhere but to a miserable future and the financial statistics of Egypt during a whole year is the biggest clue for this . And that is why they are not satisfied now with the change in Egypt .

Khalid wrote:Why would a big country like the U.S support a theocratic regime in Egypt or anywhere on earth? ...

Oil but not in Egypt. In Egypt they are quietly pleased that the Brotherhood is out and the military is back as they fund your military.

Is it the true support to democracy , the idea of respecting democratic elections or the sanctity of vote? Were there deals and benefits made? What if the Muslim brotherhood never believed in democracy as their history shows? What about their tyrannical actions during the period of 360 days which led millions of angry protesters out to the streets again ? Why do the U.S and European Union ignore the millions of protesters (More than 30 millions as estimated by the CNN) ?

Because overthrowing a democratically elected govt by a military coup no matter how popular is not democracy. If you didn't like what they were doing then get organised, campaign and throw them out at the next election, that's democracy. What you've just done is convince those who voted for the Muslim Brotherhood that democracy does not work and confirmed what the fundamentalists say about democracy not working with Islam.

I think the U.S wanted a theocratic Islamic regime in control in a country near Israel , because Israel is a theocratic state in the first place constructed as a Jewish nation , and it would be a beneficial thing to be neighboring another theocratic Islamic state and pictured some day as a small country surrounded by big threats and terrorism .
Did they want Egypt to lead a Sunni league against the Shiaa state of Iran to balance the scale ? Maybe.

Israel is a democracy, it allows its arab citizens to vote. What 'they' wanted was for the opposition to get organised and win an election, like the Brotherhood did.

Anyway what I'm sure of is that they knew the muslim brotherhood wouldn't lead Egypt to anywhere but to a miserable future and the financial statistics of Egypt during a whole year is the biggest clue for this . And that is why they are not satisfied now with the change in Egypt .

Do you mean they weren't satisfied with the Muslim Brotherhood govt? They are satisfied with the change but they are worried that now the Brotherhood and the Muslims that supported it won't participate in democracy anymore as whats the point if they're going to be thrown out by a military coup. I agree the the Brotherhood did what all those new to democracy do, i.e. thought that because they won the vote it means they can do what they like and ignore the minorities but thats a learning process and the way to get them to understand is to unelect them in the next election by getting organised and forming coalitions of the opposition.

Arising_uk wrote:Oil but not in Egypt. In Egypt they are quietly pleased that the Brotherhood is out and the military is back as they fund your military.

They are not pleased the brotherhood is out yet they started to show some understanding , but in fact they supported the coming of brotherhood in control . When Mubarak said in 2011 to the U.S the alternative to my regime is the brotherhood , Obama said no problem just leave. There were pressures made on military council even after Mubarak is gone to let go the rule to brotherhood .

If you didn't like what they were doing then get organised, campaign and throw them out at the next election, that's democracy.

You wanted us to wait another three years with a collapsing economy? You don't even know what they were doing . They blockaded the highest constitutional court in Egypt with thousands of protesters disturbing the judge work . They were trying to control the judge and spread their individuals in all high positions in the country .

confirmed what the fundamentalists say about democracy not working with Islam.

They would use democracy as a ladder to the top then break the god dame ladder , they would never give up power . They treated us like " we are more muslim than you , we are the sacred men of God " .

Do you mean they weren't satisfied with the Muslim Brotherhood govt? They are satisfied with the change but they are worried that now the Brotherhood and the Muslims that supported it won't participate in democracy anymore as whats the point if they're going to be thrown out by a military coup.

Brotherhood used religion as a heavenly mask to reach power in a country that suffers 40% illiteracy in it's population . They also used food and money in elections with poor people . Anyway let's forget all that they failed to do any improvements on any side in the country . Atleast more than 30 millions went out saying good bye , it's just that simple . Like we revolted against Mubarak we revolted again against Morsi and we will do it again against anyone that don't carry out the demands of 25 revolution or any president that will lie to us again .

Khalid wrote:They are not pleased the brotherhood is out yet they started to show some understanding , but in fact they supported the coming of brotherhood in control . When Mubarak said in 2011 to the U.S the alternative to my regime is the brotherhood , Obama said no problem just leave. There were pressures made on military council even after Mubarak is gone to let go the rule to brotherhood .

No, America said, if the people vote for them then they vote for them, that's democracy.

You wanted us to wait another three years with a collapsing economy? You don't even know what they were doing . They blockaded the highest constitutional court in Egypt with thousands of protesters disturbing the judge work . They were trying to control the judge and spread their individuals in all high positions in the country .

I do know what they were doing and it's fairly typical of those who get into power through democracy after years of dictatorship. If you don't like it then yes, you have to wait three years to unelect them. If they were doing such things where was the opposition to their thousands of protesters? Why weren't they there disturbing the protesters?

They would use democracy as a ladder to the top then break the god dame ladder , they would never give up power . They treated us like " we are more muslim than you , we are the sacred men of God " .

In that case then you could have had another revolution when they failed to hold another democratic election. But I accept that if this was your fear(and it worked for the Nazis) then maybe having yet another military coup in your country may work.

Brotherhood used religion as a heavenly mask to reach power in a country that suffers 40% illiteracy in it's population . They also used food and money in elections with poor people . Anyway let's forget all that they failed to do any improvements on any side in the country . Atleast more than 30 millions went out saying good bye , it's just that simple . Like we revolted against Mubarak we revolted again against Morsi and we will do it again against anyone that don't carry out the demands of 25 revolution or any president that will lie to us again .

Can you state clearly what this 25 revolution wants then? As I remember you being very Muslim about certain matters, is it a western secular democracy you want? Rule of Law, difficult if the populace keep revolting, equality for women and other religions? What? As until this opposition has a coherent policy then the illiterate 40% will keep voting for them. Also, why cannot your Imans put forward a different tale that theirs or is it that there isn't one?

Arising_uk wrote: No, America said, if the people vote for them then they vote for them, that's democracy.

Unfortunately the only organized faction or party after the 25 January revolution was the brotherhood group . When we were in the streets calling for fulfilling revolution demands after Mubarak had stepped down , they ran to the ballot box for parliamentary chairs . We said alright anyway , go ahead and give a hand to the revolution the thing that did not happen . they started to lose popularity . Morsi then came in control with 51.5% vote vs 48.5% to Shafiq who was the prime minister in Mubarak's regime . And when Morsi won , most of people said alright , even those who gave their vote to Shafiq , they said go ahead , change and improve things which did not happen .

If they were doing such things where was the opposition to their thousands of protesters? Why weren't they there disturbing the protesters?

There were thousands of protesters from oppositions but the majority of people were still asleep and trying to give Morsi a full chance.

In that case then you could have had another revolution when they failed to hold another democratic election. But I accept that if this was your fear(and it worked for the Nazis) then maybe having yet another military coup in your country may work.

The Islamic groups assassinated president Al Sadat in 1981 , we thought they changed as they said we no longer use or encourage violence . I personally believed them in the beginning of Morsi rule but I was wrong . And again what happened was a revolution not a coup .

Can you state clearly what this 25 revolution wants then?

It called for three demands . Bread (end of poverty) , freedom and social justice . Opposition kept demanding Morsi , for God sake activate a maximum and minimum system on wages , Increase taxes on the upper class but there was something wrong with that man's ears . But In fact we suffered daily cutting off in electricity , gas crisis and a collapsing economy .

As I remember you being very Muslim about certain matters, is it a western secular democracy you want?

I'm a muslim believing in God , his books and messengers . Believing in what the Quran says but I'm totally against a priesthood organization or group that want to establish a theocratic state like Iran . I'm against that , specially when he calls you an infidel or a disbeliever when you disagree . On the other hand I don't want the current secularism in France that allows gay marriage for example . I want a country with Islamic background ruled by a balanced civil constitution .

Rule of Law, difficult if the populace keep revolting

Well , I did not see theft or bloody massacres during 5 days of revolution . Actually people now in Egypt strongly opposes cutting road or traffic I mean . which means Egyptians are qualified for real democracy and rule of law . But what the brotherhood was leading us to was real misery .

why cannot your Imans put forward a different tale that theirs or is it that there isn't one?

We have Imam of Al Azhar , who is really respected and heard by even Christians of Egypt as an average Islamic Icon . He was with the people against the extremism of brotherhood .. they are terrorists , look at the violence they commit in the streets and in Sinai today . They are fighting police and army daily in Sinai .

Khalid wrote:Unfortunately the only organized faction or party after the 25 January revolution was the brotherhood group . When we were in the streets calling for fulfilling revolution demands after Mubarak had stepped down , they ran to the ballot box for parliamentary chairs . We said alright anyway , go ahead and give a hand to the revolution the thing that did not happen . they started to lose popularity . Morsi then came in control with 51.5% vote vs 48.5% to Shafiq who was the prime minister in Mubarak's regime . And when Morsi won , most of people said alright , even those who gave their vote to Shafiq , they said go ahead , change and improve things which did not happen .

You think you think this 'change' of yours will happen within a year? It'll take decades to improve your political systems, ingrain a rule of law and sound economic base.

With the voting proportions you give you should have got organised and waited to the next election and then voted them out.

There were thousands of protesters from oppositions but the majority of people were still asleep and trying to give Morsi a full chance. ..

Not asleep, unorganised. You appear to have no organised opposition to the very organised Brotherhood. To do this with disparate groups with different aims you have to form alliances and coalitions, it's called democracy.

The Islamic groups assassinated president Al Sadat in 1981 , we thought they changed as they said we no longer use or encourage violence . I personally believed them in the beginning of Morsi rule but I was wrong . And again what happened was a revolution not a coup .

It is a military coup, nothing more nothing less. And right now they appear to be shooting those who peacefully protest.

I remember 1981 and a sad day that was but you appear to forget that it was from the military the assassin came.

It called for three demands . Bread (end of poverty) , freedom and social justice . Opposition kept demanding Morsi , for God sake activate a maximum and minimum system on wages , Increase taxes on the upper class but there was something wrong with that man's ears . But In fact we suffered daily cutting off in electricity , gas crisis and a collapsing economy .

Was this happening when Mubarak was in power? Or was it the result of your revolution and the collapse of tourism.

"Bread (end of poverty)" - you mean a basic welfare system?

"freedom and social justice" - to vague, freedom for whom? social justice for whom? Everyone? Women? What is meant by this? Or do you mean a Rule of Law and equality before the Law.

"maximum and minimum system on wages" - maybe, maybe not, as this has not been tried anywhere I think and it's be very hard to implement and run.

I'm a muslim believing in God , his books and messengers . Believing in what the Quran says but I'm totally against a priesthood organization or group that want to establish a theocratic state like Iran . I'm against that , specially when he calls you an infidel or a disbeliever when you disagree . ...

Is it Iran who says this? I thought it the Saudis who are promoting the idea that the Iranian Shia are not true Muslims and can be killed by Muslims. Iran is a difficult example as when they overthrew the Shah they got an Ayatollah back from France and there was a backlash against the Westernization of Iran by the Shah and a hatred of America for supporting his despotic regime. Then Russia and France armed the Iraqi Ba'ath regime and that brutal war ensured that all opposition to the Ayatollahs was exterminated whilst the rest of the world turned a blind eye to the atrocities going on there.

On the other hand I don't want the current secularism in France that allows gay marriage for example . I want a country with Islamic background ruled by a balanced civil constitution .

People have a wrong idea about this 'gay marriage' idea. No-one is forcing the Christian Churches to marry anyone, its about civil marriage recognition. You see over here the State does not recognise you as married until you have a Civil Marriage or sign the Civil Registrar. Only get married in a Church and do not sign the Civil Registrar and you are not considered legally married.

Well , I did not see theft or bloody massacres during 5 days of revolution . Actually people now in Egypt strongly opposes cutting road or traffic I mean . which means Egyptians are qualified for real democracy and rule of law . But what the brotherhood was leading us to was real misery .

Then you should have voted them out at the next election.

There have been countless reports of women being attacked, beaten and raped in Tahrir square during your revolution

We have Imam of Al Azhar , who is really respected and heard by even Christians of Egypt as an average Islamic Icon . He was with the people against the extremism of brotherhood .. they are terrorists , look at the violence they commit in the streets and in Sinai today . They are fighting police and army daily in Sinai .

Then you should have got organised and voted them out at the next election. If they refused to hold one then you could have justified a military coup in the name of democracy.

What's happened now is that 51.5% have been told that their democratic vote doesn't count and has confirmed the fundamentalist Muslims belief that Islam and Democracy don't work together. I hope I'm wrong but it sounds like a recipe for civil war but I guess your military will put a stop to that.

I think that unfortunately for you the fundamentalists have it partly right as our experience is that to have a functioning democracy you have to curtail religion and remove it as much as possible from politics and law making. As blind belief is no substitute for reason when it comes to having a civilised society.

Again, I very much hope I'm completely wrong and all works out well for you and Egypt.

Arising_uk wrote: you should have got organised and waited to the next election and then voted them out.

Then you should have voted them out at the next election.

Then you should have got organised and voted them out at the next election.........

I don't really think democracy should be abbreviated in the operation of polling boxes and vote. Winning in elections is not like being given a blank check . It should be considered as a contract associated with tasks and responsibilities but let's talk practically, that man came after a revolution and he came with big promises of change and reforms , and it was clear for him that Egyptians knew their way to streets . With time the promises he gave started to show big fragility and turn into dust . He started to make actions against democracy as he declared several fortified presidential decisions in November 2012 , the division in Egyptian society started to increase . He started battles against the judge , private media , Al Azhar and opposition . The economic hard conditions started to get worse and poor people suffered more . Gas and electricity crisis started to appear while he was busy with changing the administration of Egyptian Opera because opera dancing provokes lust .

Now , as a normal citizen who doesn't belong to any fuckin party or faction and not part of all these troubles , why do I have to suffer ? what is my guilt to suffer a daily two hours of no electricity and having to line for hours in gas stations ?
He is not able to control , why do I have to suffer ?

Another thing , 7 days before 30/6 revolution , Safwat Hegazy , one of brotherhood leaders declared "Anyone gets near the elected president , there will be blood." What did that mean? To rule you or kill and burn you?

After all that , when over 30 millions protests in the streets peacefully with such number that never gathered in human history , you want to say that they were wrong and anti-democratic to revolt ? On which planet could you be right?

The terrorism and attacks against police and army in the Sinai desert have returned to appear again since the success of 30/6. And Al Beltagy , one of brotherhood leaders declares " Once Morsi is back , the violence stops immediately in Sinai" . And it's documented declaration in a video .

We were ruled by a terroristic organization in a priesthood form that not familiar with our culture and average Islam teachings , that threats the national unity and the whole future of Egypt .