Philosophy Now Forum

Time

Makes my head hurt.
I'm like Schopenhauer in the 'speak it in english school.'
The average person goes about his/her life not thinking about it. And practically that is the only option.
They believe time is time and runs the same one second per second exactly like theirs does and matches their second.
But because even those in ISS station live a different 'rate of time' than average joe on ground.
That one second per second is a variable
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I cannot 'not' think about it'.
General and special relativity has a swath of equations.
*t^ = ~*t = *t/sqroot1 - v2/c2.
And the number of equations grow depending on situ and 'special' or 'general' relativity.
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A hypothetical.

Build a 10 meter tube that fires once and pulses a picosecond light pulse down tube to mirror and back. 1 and bounces it back up tube , repeatingng endleslesly 2 3 4 5 it hit s millions in seconds. and continues that way and cannot be stopped unless you trash the tube.

put one on earth and one in New fusion powered starship "the Admiral Kuznetzov" [a "poke in eye to america" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkmQdHUDwSI]
Fire the ship up and let it fly.

after X amount of time it gets to 99.9% C and on board. the tube is still running.
On board Light still moves at its Velocity of 299792458 m/s.
The Kuznetzov then swings about and goes home. .
decelerates and when it arrives.. the 2 tubes show a different pulse count. [Those on board experienced a year, those on earth 10 years.] even though light has only one velocity.

Now this brings up so many questions that the brain hurts. a lot.
'it just dont add up' as the dog said.

However it does answer one question.
Those idiots that say the universe is a product of random chance really have no idea how complex the fundamentals that make up reality are.
And that random chance in regard to laws that govern it [the universe] cannot simply bring into being
,, such a mind boggling complex system. through 'random chance'.
THEY ARE WRONG

Design. Evolution.

Shhhhh be very qwiet, im hunting wabbits

Prill

Hjarloprillar wrote:Shhhhh be very qwiet, im hunting wabbits

Prill

With that pop-gun? What's up, doc? Since you like cartoons, check out my Einstein on a train thread, you should find your rabbits there.

Hjarloprillar wrote:Time

Makes my head hurt.
I'm like Schopenhauer in the 'speak it in english school.'
The average person goes about his/her life not thinking about it. And practically that is the only option.
They believe time is time and runs the same one second per second exactly like theirs does and matches their second.
But because even those in ISS station live a different 'rate of time' than average joe on ground.
That one second per second is a variable
----------------------------------
I cannot 'not' think about it'.
General and special relativity has a swath of equations.
*t^ = ~*t = *t/sqroot1 - v2/c2.
And the number of equations grow depending on situ and 'special' or 'general' relativity.
--------------------------------

A hypothetical.

Build a 10 meter tube that fires once and pulses a picosecond light pulse down tube to mirror and back. 1 and bounces it back up tube , repeatingng endleslesly 2 3 4 5 it hit s millions in seconds. and continues that way and cannot be stopped unless you trash the tube.

put one on earth and one in New fusion powered starship "the Admiral Kuznetzov" [a "poke in eye to america" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkmQdHUDwSI]
Fire the ship up and let it fly.

after X amount of time it gets to 99.9% C and on board. the tube is still running.
On board Light still moves at its Velocity of 299792458 m/s.
The Kuznetzov then swings about and goes home. .
decelerates and when it arrives.. the 2 tubes show a different pulse count. [Those on board experienced a year, those on earth 10 years.] even though light has only one velocity.

Now this brings up so many questions that the brain hurts. a lot.
'it just dont add up' as the dog said.

However it does answer one question.
Those idiots that say the universe is a product of random chance really have no idea how complex the fundamentals that make up reality are.
And that random chance in regard to laws that govern it [the universe] cannot simply bring into being
,, such a mind boggling complex system. through 'random chance'.
THEY ARE WRONG

Design. Evolution.

Shhhhh be very qwiet, im hunting wabbits

Prill

And yet this could say nothing of time, rather only that of the tubes and light, as they pass through various forces that be, as they affect matter. Why does everyone think clocks actually measure time? They just 'tick' at an irrelevant arbitrary rate.

No need for all the starships. As I thought we got atomic clocks to do this in fast jet planes and satellites a while back?

Arising_uk wrote:No need for all the starships. As I thought we got atomic clocks to do this in fast jet planes and satellites a while back?

Yup. It was Hafele-Keating in the early 70s (or late 60s). I think they were bog standard commercial airliners, but fast enough.

General and special relativity has a swath of equations.
*t^ = ~*t = *t/sqroot1 - v2/c2.

"And yet this could say nothing of time, rather only that of the tubes and light, as they pass through various forces that be, as they affect matter. Why does everyone think clocks actually measure time? They just 'tick' at an irrelevant arbitrary rate."

Arbitary?

Arising_uk wrote:No need for all the starships. As I thought we got atomic clocks to do this in fast jet planes and satellites a while back?

Inconclusive!

tillingborn wrote:

Arising_uk wrote:No need for all the starships. As I thought we got atomic clocks to do this in fast jet planes and satellites a while back?

Yup. It was Hafele-Keating in the early 70s (or late 60s). I think they were bog standard commercial airliners, but fast enough.

Inconclusive!

Hjarloprillar wrote:"And yet this could say nothing of time, rather only that of the tubes and light, as they pass through various forces that be, as they affect matter. Why does everyone think clocks actually measure time? They just 'tick' at an irrelevant arbitrary rate."

Arbitary?

Yes arbitrary. What does a second, minute, or hour relate too as far as the universe goes? Why 24 hours in a day, why not 36, or 20,000?

SpheresOfBalance wrote:Inconclusive!

What was inconclusive? They got the clocks back and they told different times consistent with the predictions and calculations of Relativity Theory? Its proved everyday with GPS systems.

a view from another forum

"Time in it's most accurate form , as I understand it, is a measure of the radiation cycles of the Cesium atom as in atomic clocks. This is indicative as a measurement of motion of the electrons involved. As for time being relative, the answer would be certainly, "yes". As matter travels through space, say a cesium atom, the observed radiation cycles decrease in frequency thus time slows for the atom. As the velocity increases there is more time dilation and also a physical flattening of the atom toward the direction of travel relative to the ambient radiation in space."

UK's last comment about gps is correct. clocks we send out invariably differ to local time on return.
Spheres suffers from affliction that is very common and in some ways understandable.
If time is a variable the world is so much stranger it crosses the line into something spheres imagination cannot hold on to. let alone logic.
This is not because it is incorrect. It is because imagination cannot encompass it.
Over 100 years have passed since relativity was put forward. 98% of humanity still has no idea of what it means. 1 in 10,000 Can describe time dilation in plain language.
Many people reading this on this forum now, do not believe a ship that flew out and returned experienced LESS time than we on earth. [the Kuznetzov]
It simply does not fit in their world view so ergo.. it is false.

For to to do so. the kuznetsov became a very slow time machine.
the math works.. with enough deltaV it is possible to travel 1000 years into future in 10 years.
this is as demonstrable as our laws of gravity.

To quote
the genius who lived with us.

"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence and fulfills the duty to express the results of his thoughts in clear form."
"Imagination is more important than knowledge."
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination.'"
-------------------
what , did Hitler do about this german jew?
"Einstein's house was attacked by the SA [sturm abteilung] soon after Hitler came to power. Luckily Einstein was visiting California at the time."
LOL

Prill

And the view from this forum:

tillingborn wrote:

This is the direct link if you want a better look.

http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u60 ... 73b9aa.jpg

The point is that every interaction takes longer the faster you are going, because the particles involved have to go further. In any inertial frame it is impossible to tell how fast you are going, because every atom in that frame is subject to the same dilation as you are; that is why time is relative. As Hafele-Keating showed, you can use relativity to work out how much faster or slower something is going than you are, but the idea of absolute rest is as good as useless, because you would have to compare your inertial frame with every other one in the universe and even then, all you would know is which one is the slowest. It's really not worth the effort.

Hjarloprillar wrote:.. with enough deltaV it is possible to travel 1000 years into future in 10 years.
this is as demonstrable as our laws of gravity.

What it is theoretically possible to do, is to spend as long in a spaceship as it takes for our planet to orbit our sun 1000 times and to be travelling at such a speed that the interactions on the ship and your body are slowed down, for the reason above, to such an extent that as many interactions will have happened as would have, had you been on the planet during 10 of those orbits.

am i stupid? where is delete post button?

What is possiible is that you dilate. and 100 orbits happen to those on earth in period it takes 10 orbits to happen in your REALITY.
You obfuscate and still do not admit.. time Runs at a different rate.TIME on a ship at near light is not operating on same dynamic as time on earth.
Velocity and the tau factor.
Time RUNS At different rates. atoms move slower. The local environment of say the kuznesov is not linked in any way timewise to earth.
In the time it takes Joe to open fridge on earth and remove a nice burrito. Joe on kujznetsov is only just reaching out to grab the handle.
Dilation IS A REAL PHYSICAL ACTUALLITY. Not a product of observer/ subject. [though that would be if one could do so.]
WHEN JOE RETURNS TO EARTH.
He is say 5 or ten years older than when he left earth in 2018. On earth it is now 2679 ad.

this.. is a FACT
Not a theoretic possibility.
Like gravity. Time has its inverse square.
All i'm saying is dilation is just that.