Philosophy Now Forum

i mentioned this before - most pro-lifers are arguing in bad faith - they do not care about women or children

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/20 ... t_the.html

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.........................................................................Pro-choice guy here. I LOVE women!




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At first, I thought you were using sarcasim because I thought, "Surely anybody with basic knowledge of logic and philosophy would not seriously have a topic with a logical fallacy" - but I was wrong!

So, you think that because somebody is for live, they are as you wrote, "ass holes."
First, we all have ass holes, but it is only one tiny aspect of us.
Second, if you are trying to put people down for embracing human life, then you are puting yourself & everyone on this forum down, because we all are "pro life" by keeping ourselves nourished and alive.

You seem to be trying to imply that encouraging sexual irresponsbility and the aftermaths of abortion murders, is worthy of being deemed "ass hole."
Consider this, if you will...

Human development reveals that by 8 weeks gestation, all body systems are intact, so by the time most abortion murders are conducted, the child (developing human being) can feel his or her body being ripped apart, limb by limb. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kq27UYHdxn8

Often mothers who have abortions have health complications, as a consequence, especially mentally... "Abortion Increases Risk of Women’s Mental Health Problems 81%... Coleman's study is based on an analysis of 22 separate studies which, in total, examine the pregnancy experiences of 877,000 women, with 163,831 women having an abortion. The study also indicated abortion accounts for one in ten of every adverse mental health issue women face as a whole...The peer-reviewed study indicated abortion was linked with a 34 percent chance of anxiety disorders, and 37 percent higher possibility of depression, a more than double risk of alcohol abuse (110 percent), a three times greater risk of marijuana use (220 percent), and 155 percent greater risk of trying to commit suicide."

And you think that "pro-lifers are assholes"?

And you think that "pro-lifers are assholes"?

Your 'shock' at allowing a woman to choose whether or not to have a child is a pitiful indictment against what we call "pro-lifers", Perspective, which evidently includes you, does it not?

Whenever any hu'man being loses their freedom of choice to be stifled by a government, a religious belief, a morality assumption or any other means is what is despicable. The vast majority of women who choose to abort do so after giving serious thought to do, what they believe, what is best for the fetus. After giving birth unwillingly is where the alligator tears dry up with the pro-lifers. In the U.S. it is difficult if not impossible to find even one pro-lifer willing to give assistance to a woman who is penniless or without a means of financial support to properly raise a child.

Give the child up for adoption does little good in the long run for the child as statistics will prove (as you used your stats against abortion). There are always two sides to any situation and picking one over another will find the chooser not a saint or god-favored but only prove themselves to be an opinionated asshole who is pretentious and hypocritical.

Your 'cut and paste' - "so by the time most abortion murders are conducted, the child (developing human being) can feel his or her body being ripped apart, limb by limb," is unnecessary and even ridiculous. Verify this outlandish statement and then prove that the poverty and hunger that the vast majority of Americans (and most children worldwide) leads to malnourishment and sickness that will remain with them most of their shortened life. Will you and your opinionated assholes feed, clothe and medicate they children of the world who would otherwise not have to live a world that doesn't care? We all know the answer to that, don't we?

No, 'perspective', your perspective is molded not by truth and facts but those who feel they lead the morality play that has let it's opinions on 'choice vs no choice' for women to incite the weak and ignorant that predominate with religious excuses to justify their weak opinions. The world is and will always be a world where life struggles against death, where decisions regarding health or sickness is but yet another choice that we must make when confronted by, not ideologies, but reality, something your own opinions seem to gloss over in order to (hopefully) instill a sense of (needless) guilt into the hearts and minds of women who would be infinitely better off to make their own decisions rather that having to listen to the blather of ignoramuses like yourself.

Get off you soapbox, perspective, and find yourself rather than attempting to decide for others what is right and what is wrong in their lives. It will take a great deal of needless responsibility of your own shoulders.

mtmyd1

Perspective wrote:Second, if you are trying to put people down for embracing human life, then you are puting yourself & everyone on this forum down, because we all are "pro life" by keeping ourselves nourished and alive.

sigh

pro lifers - not all of them but probably most - favor social policies that are grossly inconsistent with their pro life stance

they are the first to demand cutting welfare benefits to single mothers

they are the ones denouncing teen girls who get pregnant as sluts

in this case the girl got pregnant because of rape - decided to keep the baby - and is nevertheless being treated as a slut

my comment was directed as pro-lifers - the people - not at anti-abortion arguments

Coleman's study is based on an analysis of 22 separate studies which, in total, examine the pregnancy experiences of 877,000 women, with 163,831 women having an abortion. The study also indicated abortion accounts for one in ten of every adverse mental health issue women face as a whole...The peer-reviewed study indicated abortion was linked with a 34 percent chance of anxiety disorders, and 37 percent higher possibility of depression, a more than double risk of alcohol abuse (110 percent), a three times greater risk of marijuana use (220 percent), and 155 percent greater risk of trying to commit suicide."

this might have something to do with attitudes towards the women in question rather than abortion

i am a little puzzled by "risk of marijuana" use. There is nothing wrong with marijuana use. are they more likely to abuse it?



also pro-life stance - which has some philosophical underpinnings - usually goes with manifestly unjustified views - like opposition to homosexuality, being a republican, supporting murder of civilians in the middle east, that sort of thing - what is up with that?

Kayla wrote: most pro-lifers are arguing in bad faith - they do not care about women or children

Nice stereotype.

John K wrote:

Kayla wrote: most pro-lifers are arguing in bad faith - they do not care about women or children

Nice stereotype.

its not a stereotype

legitimate rape?

rape does not cause pregnancy?

cutting welfare benefits?

kicking pregnant girls out of school?


things might be different outside of the USA, i dont know

but if you live in the usa and insist that i am merely invoking a stereotype you are either a liar or a moron

Kayla wrote:

John K wrote:

Kayla wrote: most pro-lifers are arguing in bad faith - they do not care about women or children

Nice stereotype.

its not a stereotype

legitimate rape?

rape does not cause pregnancy?

cutting welfare benefits?

kicking pregnant girls out of school?


things might be different outside of the USA, i dont know

but if you live in the usa and insist that i am merely invoking a stereotype you are either a liar or a moron

What are you doing about it? Or is it all talk?

John K wrote: What are you doing about it? Or is it all talk?

By bringing it up to discuss is a good beginning for Kayla. Any other efforts she may or may not be undertaking to keep this argument alive is something between her and her private lives, wouldn't you agree?

its a common but weird way to derail a discussion

one could be having a discussion about the need - or lack of it - to add iodine to salt in Africa - and someone is like 'well what are you doing about it'

Kayla,
Only 1% of abortions are due to rape.
Medical complications account for about 6% of abortions. These are conditions that would justify abortion.
93% of abortion murders are do to the woman CHOOSING to act irresonsibly sexually and then making her own child pay for the consequences - often by torcherous death.
Sexual irresponsibility does not justify murder, and I have to wonder at anybody encouraging such.

I am suprised to see so many logical fallacies you are presenting, probably not even realizing it.
Did you know about the above statistics? If so, why didn't you focus your "ass hole" remarks on those who supposedly oppose the 1%?
What you are doing by posting on this forum is misleading people who read this - who may act on such ignorance to the detriment of a child and themselves.

John is correct in your major stereotyping. And only from such an illogical perspective could you cast people into group thought, as if all people who voice a perspective in one way, must think in terms of how you interpret political (liberal or conservative) groups think. Has it EVER occurred to you that some people, especially those on a philosophy forum, choose to THINK for themselves and may support and reject some ideas of BOTH conservative groups and some ideas of liberal groups? Or is that too much outside of a custom wrapped belief package, to imagine?

Perspective wrote:Only 1% of abortions are due to rape.

yes and when someone says that they are opposed to ALL abortion is becomes hard to take them seriously

Medical complications account for about 6% of abortions. These are conditions that would justify abortion.

yes and the republican party and the catholic church and the southern baptist convention are working to ban those 7% as well

given how insane that is - they have no credibility when they talk about their concern for human life

93% of abortion murders are do to the woman CHOOSING to act irresonsibly sexually and then making her own child pay for the consequences - often by torcherous death.

the same people who oppose abortion overwhelmingly oppose sex education and many also oppose birth control in general

opposition to sex education and birth control makes no sense at all if one is serious in opposing abortion

unless that is one is either acting in bad faith, using their opposition to abortion as cover for something else

or one is insane, or one is an asshole



yes, there is a compelling philosophical case to impose some restrictions on abortions past the first trimester -but the people who identify themselves 'pro life' make no arguments for that

Sexual irresponsibility does not justify murder, and I have to wonder at anybody encouraging such.

is abortion murder?

abortion during the 9th month? yes, it is

killing a zygote? no, any such claim is sheer lunacy

during the third month? i do not see a strong case for it


again those who identify themselves as 'pro choice' typically argue that the bible regards abortion as murder

this is an outright lie - sort of like arguing that bible forbids obamacare

so again the republicans/catholics/southern baptists are not acting in good faith


my comments do not apply to any general philosophical argument you might make against abortion

rather to the 'pro life' types in the usa - it is a judgement about people not abstract philosophical arguments

I am suprised to see so many logical fallacies you are presenting, probably not even realizing it.

so what are your thoughts about the pro lifers who at the same time condemn any girl who is discovered to have gotten pregnant outside of marriage - i.e most pro lifers - as a slut?

Did you know about the above statistics?

i also know that 72.4% of all statistics are made up on the spot

i also know that a lot of rape and incest is unreported - so we actually have no idea what proportion of abortions is due to them

If so, why didn't you focus your "ass hole" remarks on those who supposedly oppose the 1%?

ie - the republican party/southern baptist convention/catholic church - i.e. most 'pro lifers'

John is correct in your major stereotyping. And only from such an illogical perspective could you cast people into group thought, as if all people who voice a perspective in one way, must think in terms of how you interpret political (liberal or conservative) groups think. Has it EVER occurred to you that some people, especially those on a philosophy forum, choose to THINK for themselves and may support and reject some ideas of BOTH conservative groups and some ideas of liberal groups? Or is that too much outside of a custom wrapped belief package, to imagine?

yes it is possible to not be 'pro choice' without supporting the republican/sbc/catholic views on abortion - and some people are

my comments were not directed at them - but they do apply to those who strongly identify themselves as 'pro life'

Kayla,

I'd suggest you read up on logical fallacies...
http://www.logicalfallacies.info/

It might help in how you come across.

The political opponents of reproductive choice are assholes.

Better? They support death penalty but no school lunches; rendition but not vaccination; union-busting and no minimum wage; tax cuts for the wealthy and disenfranchisement for the poor.
Their greatest hypocrisy, as Kayla has pointed out, is in calling themselves pro-life. What they mean is pro-privileged life of rich white American males. Everybody else is fair game. The middle east is for bombing back to the stone age (Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out.) the far east is for cheap labour; poor boys are for cannon-fodder; poor girls are for the incubation of more cannon-fodder. If you're pigmented and female and poor ... well, obviously, you've made the wrong life-choice.

The slogan of right-wing fundamentalists is "personal responsibility";
the canon on which it's based is "Whatever we do to you is your fault."

On abortion: it's a last resort.
If you want there to fewer abortions:
1. Make preventive measures universally available, effective and cheap
2. Teach children about reproduction and birth control before puberty.
3. Teach boys and girls to respect themselves and each other.
4. Take the mystification and hyperbole out of sex.
5. Enforce laws that protect weaker members of society from abuse by the stronger.
6. Extend good prenatal health care to all women who may need it.
7. Take better care of all the babies and children in your society.
8. Take much better care of your society.