Philosophy Now Forum

Mark Chou argues that the performance of tragedies helped establish democracy.

http://philosophynow.org/issues/94/Demo ... nd_Tragedy

Without democracy tragedy would be more tragic. Democracy mitigates tragedy. In contrast authoritarianism compounds tragedy.

Tragedy is born of the tussle between materialism and idealism. It's the brouhaha that arises from the two meeting. Democracy attempts, with much success, to reconcile the two. Authoritarianism only aggravates the situation by insisting on keeping the two separate and distinct.

tyranny of the majority is still tyranny

-Imp

spike wrote:Without democracy tragedy would be more tragic. Democracy mitigates tragedy. In contrast authoritarianism compounds tragedy.

Tragedy is born of the tussle between materialism and idealism. It's the brouhaha that arises from the two meeting. Democracy attempts, with much success, to reconcile the two. Authoritarianism only aggravates the situation by insisting on keeping the two separate and distinct.

I learned at school that a tragic hero has to choose between two bad solutions.
Antigone had to choose between the duty to bury the dead and the duty to obey the monarch (who in this case prohibited to bury the dead traitor).

How does materialism and idealism play a role in this tragic conflict ?

I learned at school that a tragic hero has to choose between two bad solutions.
Antigone had to choose between the duty to bury the dead and the duty to obey the monarch (who in this case prohibited to bury the dead traitor).

How does materialism and idealism play a role in this tragic conflict ?

I don't know what that tragedy has to do with democracy. The subject is Democracy & Tragedy. But I guess if that ordeal were played out on stage in front of an audience there would be a democratizing effect. Antigone sharing her delema with others will provoke some soul searching and thinking in an atomist fashion that is relevant and contingent to democracy. I think that is why Shakespeare has been so influential in his prose, because his tragedies of conflict and paradoxes lead to revelations and a self-awareness, thus a freedom, which are all essential to the development of democracy. Also, in the plays we encounter materialistic situations that generate abstract, idealistic emotions.

I can only think that Antigone's tragic conflict is due to a materialistic dead body and the idealism of burying it. But then we have the monarch, an authoritarian, who is making matters worse by creating the conflict in denying the burial for some abstract, idealistic reason.

Antigone (a lady) buried her brother and was sentenced to death by the king because she disobeyed his orders.
A play by Sophocles, shown to ancient Greeks, as an example of civil disobedience.

Romeo and Juliet. If they marry they do what they feel to be right, but on the other hand they make their families unhappy.
Shall we oblige our family or marry whom we love ?

Romeo and Juliet. If they marry they do what they feel to be right, but on the other hand they make their families unhappy. Shall we oblige our family or marry whom we love ?

Does this have anything to do with democracy & tragedy, the subject of this post?

I tried to apply a general thesis to practical examples and see if the thesis holds.

Deduction (as opposed to induction): we go from the abstract to the particular. To see if the abstract rule holds or should be replaced by something better.

But you sneeze on my well-intentioned efforts so I give up.

I tried to apply a general thesis to practical examples and see if the thesis holds.

Deduction (as opposed to induction): we go from the abstract to the particular. To see if the abstract rule holds or should be replaced by something better.

But you sneeze on my well-intentioned efforts so I give up.

Well, irony is a major component of tragedy.

Irony ?
You can´t be serious.

Irony is a means to endure tragedy, at best, if you do not feel up to it.
But irony can trivialise tragedy. And thus turn it into a trifle.

No, Spike.
The aim of tragedy is to give the spectator the feeling of awe.
Great operas are aiming at the same.

If you wish to get into awe you cannot try to distance yourself by being ironic or sarcastic.
You need the courage to immerse yourself into it. Body and soul.

The Arab/Muslim world has been lacking in democracy. I am assuming that is partly due to the lack of theatre in that part of the world. Theatre dramatization has not been part of their culture. Therefore, their civilization has missed out on one of the cauldrons in which democracy has grown, through the interaction of actors and their audiences. Similarly they have been lacking in other cultural venues like orchestras and the publishing of books and magazines that could have help them in achieving democracy.

Hegel didn’t talk about democracy but he did talk about the human struggle for freedom and recognition. One can’t fulfill those needs without democracy. The tragedy is that those needs haven't been met through the rational means Hegel had envisioned, not through transcendental idealism but through the harsh reality of materialism.

Now I see the point:

When people go the theatre, or do some other thing in the area of cultural activity, they stop thinking about their materialistic needs for a moment and focus on ideals, like for example "justice" or "freedom".

But it can just as well happen during a meal at a table, when people start to discuss something.

But it can just as well happen during a meal at a table, when people start to discuss something.

That is true. But the more venues in which it occurs the better, the discussion and deliberation of what it is to have justice and be free. That is what is important to democracy, that it occurs and is reinforced on many levels. The more masters democracy has the better. The more complex it gets the better. The more layers democracy has the better it is inoculated against tyranny and fascism.

How about the Toast Masters Club ?
They eat, drink and then makes speeches. People can criticize them in order to make them better speakers.

Eloquence can be dangerous though. Good speakers can be skillful manipulators.

The best way to explain their tricks to the interested public is ... a forum like this one.

This forum is a huge step towards democracy, I would say.