Harbal wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 5:44 am
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:34 am
Harbal wrote: ↑Sun Jun 30, 2024 8:13 am
Nobody has to agree with anybody's moral view.
Actually, they do...if that view is to allow us to form a society, a justice system, a system of distribution, a set of human rights....
To be able to agree is not the same as having to agree.
Actually, it is. You can't ask criminals if it's okay with them that there are laws against what they do.
IC wrote:
No, actually: as an objectivist, I have no such problem. As a Subjectivist, it's entirely yours.
I don't see how that is the case. People are just as free to disagree with your moral view as they are with mine, and are far more likely to, from what I've seen.
Sure, there are always criminals and other evildoers. But that's not a fault of the moral law; it's a fault of the evildoers. And we know them AS evildoers only to the extent that they have violated the law, not because they kept it. Moreover, they knew they violated the law, for they concealed their deeds and were ashamed to let them be known, or afraid of the rightful judgment that impended against them. So even the criminals are, in that sense, "agreeing" with the law: they know what they shouldn't have done.
IC wrote:
What is your evidence for that belief, that "seeming"? How do you know that what a 13 year old boy imagines a "girl" is, is what a girl is? Or how do you conclude that what a 13 year old girl thinks a "boy" is, is a boy?
Gender dysphoria is a recognised condition.
If you call it "dysphoria," you're recognizing that it's a delusion, a mental illness. If they were really girls/boys, it would not be a "condition" at all. It would be the norm.
But think back to when you were 13. Did you know anything at all about the experiences and cognitions of the opposite sex? If you did, you were a marvelously exceptional 13 year old. Most have no clue, as I'm sure you realize. They make horrible misguesses as to why the opposite sex is doing or saying what they do, missteps that are wildly embarassing and off-point, in many cases.
So how does a 13 year old boy "know" that "he's a girl," when has never been one, has no such body, has no such experiences, no such psychology, and in fact, knows almost nothing at all about girls?
IC wrote:
If it's biology that makes him a male, then transing is simply impossible.
It is impossible for a biological male to become a biological female, but "transing", whatever that involves, apparently makes life more bearable for these people.
Apparently not. Their suicide rate on both sides of the transing is identical...and actually, just marginally higher (but within error limits) for those who have 'successfully' completed it.
So you're not "helping" these mentally-ill people. In fact, you're hurting them, by normalizing their illness, which means they go undiagnosed and unhelped. What they need is professional counselling, because statistically, the vast majority of them will abandon the desire to trans by their late teens and early twenties, but only if they are not already interfered-with by way of hormones, surgery and such, and are allowed to adjust to the realities of their bodies.
IC wrote:
Where is it objectively written, "People have a right to live any way they want to?" Maybe you can quote that holy scripture to me.
If I were the sort of person to quote holy scriptures, I would be ashamed of myself.
Which is only to say that you have no reason to think "people have a right to live any way they want to." We don't allow people to be pedos, or cannibals, or other forms of demented persons. So the right to choose any version of life is limited by proper moral limits. The question is whether pretending to be the opposite sex is within those limits, or is a form of mentally-ill behavior.
IC wrote:Harbal wrote:Why can't we just try to accommodate him without giving into any unreasonable demands he might have?
The demand for a boy to be a girl is unreasonable. As you admit, it defies biology and psychology, and has no relation to reality we can detect.
But if those involved can detect it, and it enables them to live a more satisfying life...?
Because for the vast majority, it doesn't do any such thing. And for society, it seeks to compel them to abandon the obvious facts of biology and psychology. So it's demented, and an illegitimate incursion into others' grasp on truth and reality. All it does is create serious dysfunction in social relationships. It doesn't actually "help" anybody.
All you and I are debating right now is one simple difference. We both want to see these poor people helped (I presume, on your side, for I can only speak to mine). You think the way to help them is to encourage and institutionalize their disease. I think it's to give them therapy to come to grips with the realities of their physiology and psychology -- which even you, yourself, admit are the objective basis of their real sex. You want them to hate their natural bodies and defy normal psychology; I want them to accept their bodies and adjust to normal psychology.
So who's helping?
...and they DONT give up their vote- wives included U DUMB **
