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Re: compatibilism
Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 8:05 am
by BigMike
iambiguous wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:23 pm
Over and again, from my frame of mind, the manner in which you note this would seem to be predicated on some measure of free will.
I'm sorry I don't have time to read all your historical posts to find the answer, but what
is your "frame of mind"? Would you say, for example, that you are a libertarian, a determinist, a compatibilist, or an indeterminist -- or what?
Re: compatibilism
Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:45 am
by Belinda
Big Mike, is Free Will all -or -nothing, or is it possible for a man to have a teeny wee measure of Free Will?
Re: compatibilism
Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:46 am
by Belinda
Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:45 am
Big Mike, is Free Will all -or -nothing, or is it possible for a man to have a teeny wee measure of Free Will?
If the latter, do some men get to have a larger measure of F W than other men?
Re: compatibilism
Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:52 pm
by BigMike
Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:45 am
Big Mike, is Free Will all -or -nothing, or is it possible for a man to have a teeny wee measure of Free Will?
Free will is an illusion. There is no such thing. There is a
will, but it isn't free, nor does it cause us to act. Our will is just our perception of what the brain has decided to do.
Re: compatibilism
Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:05 pm
by promethean75
"is it possible for a man to have a teeny wee measure of Free Will?"
A man can have a teeny wee, but never can he have 'freewill', Belinda.
You can be free and have some degree of freedom, but you can't 'have' a 'freewill'.
Seriously I'm not mincing words. It's what is meant in classical and contemporary Philosophy with the phrase 'freewill' that has all the problems.
At the same time if we're gonna be sticklers then 'determinism' makes no sense either because nature is not an intentional, purposeful agency and doesn't 'determine' anything. Things cause things, but nothing is 'determined' in advance or planned or purposed.
Re: compatibilism
Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:39 pm
by Belinda
Big Mike, and Promethean, I agree with you both. I don't believe in Free Will and F W
is not compatible with determinism properly understood.
Re: compatibilism
Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:04 pm
by Flannel Jesus
promethean75 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:05 pm
At the same time if we're gonna be sticklers then 'determinism' makes no sense either because nature is not an intentional, purposeful agency and doesn't 'determine' anything. Things cause things, but nothing is 'determined' in advance or planned or purposed.
Sounds like you're confusing determinism with fate, or something like that. Physical determinism doesn't require purpose, agency, or plans. All it requires are invariant rules and no randomness.
Re: compatibilism
Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:09 pm
by Flannel Jesus
BigMike wrote: ↑Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:52 pm
Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:45 am
Big Mike, is Free Will all -or -nothing, or is it possible for a man to have a teeny wee measure of Free Will?
Free will is an illusion. There is no such thing. There is a
will, but it isn't free, nor does it cause us to act. Our will is just our perception of what the brain has decided to do.
You don't think the will might be the brain itself deciding to do things, rather than just the perception of it?
Re: compatibilism
Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:14 pm
by BigMike
Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:09 pm
BigMike wrote: ↑Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:52 pm
Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:45 am
Big Mike, is Free Will all -or -nothing, or is it possible for a man to have a teeny wee measure of Free Will?
Free will is an illusion. There is no such thing. There is a
will, but it isn't free, nor does it cause us to act. Our will is just our perception of what the brain has decided to do.
You don't think the will might be the brain itself deciding to do things, rather than just the perception of it?
That's what I said: the brain decides and executes actions. Will is merely a perception.
Re: compatibilism
Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:19 pm
by Flannel Jesus
That's not what I said though. I asked if it was not just a perception, but something more
Re: compatibilism
Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:25 pm
by Belinda
The 'will' is not even a perception but is a fanciful word for deciding.
Re: compatibilism
Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:45 pm
by BigMike
Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:25 pm
The 'will' is not even a perception but is a fanciful word for deciding.
No, the decision has been made
prior to your awareness; before it becomes our will.
Re: compatibilism
Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:59 pm
by BigMike
Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:19 pm
That's not what I said though. I asked if it was not just a perception, but something more
What are you referring to by the word "it"? The will? The brain's decision? The brain's decision-making?
The brain's decision-making, in my view, is physical. It is neuronal signals (electric action potential) flowing through the brain's neural network and ultimately stimulate muscles and glands. The "will" is merely an
observer of this process; it does not
control it. Therefore, the "will" does not govern your actions.
Re: compatibilism
Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 8:07 pm
by Flannel Jesus
BigMike wrote: ↑Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:59 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:19 pm
That's not what I said though. I asked if it was not just a perception, but something more
What are you referring to by the word "it"? The will? The brain's decision? The brain's decision-making?
The brain's decision-making, in my view, is physical. It is neuronal signals (electric action potential) flowing through the brain's neural network and ultimately stimulate muscles and glands. The "will" is merely an
observer of this process; it does not
control it. Therefore, the "will" does not govern your actions.
If you think there's an observer, I don't know why you would name it "the will" instead of just calling it an observer. Seems contrary to how "will" as a word is generally used.
Since you believe there's processes in the brain that do make decisions, that do govern our actions, THAT is what should rightfully be called the will.
Re: compatibilism
Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 8:21 pm
by Belinda
BigMike wrote: ↑Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:45 pm
Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:25 pm
The 'will' is not even a perception but is a fanciful word for deciding.
No, the decision has been made
prior to your awareness; before it becomes our will.
Yes,I forgot that.