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Re: Christianity

Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:19 pm
by Dontaskme
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:42 pm
Think of it this way. Your father, let us say, is the "cause" of your existence. But if he is the "cause" of your existence, then it means he must have already existed before you were born. He had to exist BEFORE you did.
Hold it right there buster. 8)

You are here now claiming there is a Father aka a causer, that causes the birth of you.

Now all you have to do is to tell us who caused ''the causer'' to exist? you will not be able to answer that, so all you have to work with is the caused.

Now, that's the only knowledge you will ever be able to know, because that which has been ''caused'' is KNOWN..and will be the only reality you will ever know. You will never be able to go beyond that impasse, in the belief you can get a peek up the point or origin's skirt.

The only reason you believe there is a causer of the caused, is because the caused is known. But allow me to inform you of an uncomfotable truth....the ''caused'' is all that can be known, and that which is known, knows NOTHING. :shock:

Re: Christianity

Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:28 pm
by Dontaskme
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:42 pm

Therefore, we are products of a FINITE chain of causes, and so is the whole universe, insomuch as it is also a member of the set of things that are involved in the cause-effect chain.

So far, so good? Is that evident now?

But you could only know that, by relating it to it's opposite by association.

Therefore, the FINITE chain of causes have to be TEMPORAL appearances within what must be first and foremost INFINITE.

You are the INFINITE experiencing itself finitely albeit in an illusory sense, because INFINITY or the ABSOLUTE can never be known by anything that is finite, the very idea it can is absurd.

You are like someone who wants to have the cake and eat it too, most christians are like that, and is why they are evil.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:41 pm
by Dontaskme
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:20 am The impossibility of an infinite regression of causes.
Assuming there is such a real and true tangible hypothesis that can be known to exist in the first place. But then to know the meaning of the word ''INFINITE'' is to first know it's opposite.

So the very idea of infinity coming from what is without doubt or error a finite mind is wholly laughable. :lol:

Knowledge, my son, can only point to the illusory nature of reality...it can only point to the ''known'', not the ''knower''.. how many more times does this have to be explained to you? :shock:


Do you know why christians are evil IC..it's because they pedal the idea that hell is place you go to if you reject good.

But just so you know the real story, hell is where you already are, and is why you have needed to invent a place call heaven to escape the reality of hell. :shock: HEAVEN and HELL are a state of mind IC ...ok?

But it's not rocket science to discover that good is a natural state for all feeling sentient creatures, the condition is not contingent upon being the case, in fear of some threat of hellfire.

My god, people are just so dumb and clueless.

.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:18 pm
by bahman
Janoah wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:56 am
bahman wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:23 am
Janoah wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:11 am


there is a Jewish story:
An atheist comes to the rabbi, and says -
"Rebbe, I don't believe in God!"
The Rebbe answers him -
"In a God you don't believe in, I don't believe either."

In Aristotle's proof of God, there is no creation out of nothing.
The most authoritative Judaic sage, Maimonides, also proves the existence of the Divine precisely on the basis that there was no creation of the world in time, that is, the world is co-eternal to the One.

Therefore, your argument against the existence of God does not work.
So what the creation means?
Creatio ex nihilo.
But, however, "Ex nihilo nihil fit".
What is "nihil fit"?

Re: Christianity

Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:21 pm
by Dontaskme
bahman wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:18 pm What is "nihil fit"?
Nothing from Nothing.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:28 pm
by bahman
Dontaskme wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:21 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:18 pm What is "nihil fit"?
Nothing from Nothing.
So "Ex nihilo nihil fit" means nothing comes of nothing. But that is wrong.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:29 pm
by Dontaskme
bahman wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:18 pm What is "nihil fit"?
The problem with Nothing from Nothing for the dualistical nature that is mind in and of itself as a known concept, is that the mind needs to make sense of reality - and how it does that is to split it into a knower and a known.... Nothing from Nothing doesn't make sense, not until there is known the opposite of Nothing.

That's the minds job to split reality into two opposing ideas that are in reality the exact same indistinguishable ONE reality. The contradiction is necessary for the mind to know anything at all.

Reality is a double negative.

Something is nothing, and nothing is something, is the same exact reality.

Preferences of one state over the other are always superimpositions, in other words, illusory.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:53 pm
by Immanuel Can
Dontaskme wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:10 pm You tripping again IC :wink:
Not talking to you, DAM. Can't deal with the drama.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:14 pm
by Alexis Jacobi
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:05 pmNo, I wouldn't say that was fair.

The deciding factor is not subjective...it's either objectively true or objectively false. The only way a prophecy can "be what people want it to be" is if it's so vague as to describe nothing...like daily horoscopes. If it's at all specific, then a prophecy is simply true or false.
That is not what I meant. What I referred to is that for thousands of years the prophecies to which we refer were suspected, intuited, imagined and perceived as being close, just around the corner, and in every period where there were wars, conflicts, disasters, and other such events, it was imagined that the end of the world was nigh.

I did not say that prophecy was what people wanted it to be, but rather that they in fact had no choice but to try to attempt to interpret the prophecies they read about, or which other people talked about, as having direct bearing on their lives, the situations around them. And as always this sense of foreboding had a 'Christian' function: to induce a sense of instability in them. If they were complacent about *the world* and themselves in that world they would not be able to find the motive to sever their hopes and longings from a mutable platform and turn instead to God and higher metaphysical ideas (or realities).

It is now, and in a sense *once again*, that the events of our world and what goes on around us seem to us similarly devious, unsustainable, as if portending momentous changes of a dark sort. For some the *climate crisis* is a physical manifestation rising out of the Earth itself, or more properly the *atmospheric gods*, that communicates to them that life is not secure, but also that something is fundamentally wrong, and indeed that their is something fundamentally wrong with them. It then becomes a question of application of *interpretation* (in that sense I used the term hermeneutics) to try to 'divine' what the meaning of all this is. But the essential factor is the sense that the foundation, the understructure of life in so many areas and senses is unstable.

It seems to produce a form of desperation.

But all of this has been felt, in greater or lesser degrees of course, depending on the moment, for hundreds of years, and it was all of the same 'species'. Obviously, with advent of the Great War and the destruction that followed (so I have read) faith in the continuity of *civilized* life was severely affected. I read not long ago someone who had written that the sense of trust in life itself as a stable platform in Europe changed dramatically as a result of that shock. He said that one would have had to have lived prior to 1914 to have known that sense of faith and comfort that life offered, which as substantially shattered after that terrible war -- and of course those that followed it.

In my view it is clear that the modern era seems to be one of acceleration in all areas, but though it is said that life improves and gets better with every passing advance, it does seem to me that people generally sense that things get that much more insecure, and that it is not really possible to have great faith in these developments.

This interests me, of course, because I sense that (certainly in the US, I am uncertain how other people perceive it) the loss of faith in an understructure the world provides leads to a tremendous and mounting psychic insecurity. It seems to me this insecurity and angst lead to an internal condition of susceptibility to *hysteria*.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:27 pm
by Alexis Jacobi
Dontaskme wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:41 pmBut just so you know the real story, hell is where you already are, and is why you have needed to invent a place call heaven to escape the reality of hell.
L'infer, c'est les autres . . .

Did you ever read Sartre's No Exit (Huis Clos)?
The play begins with three characters who find themselves waiting in a mysterious room. It is a depiction of the afterlife in which three deceased characters are punished by being locked into a room together for eternity.
Three damned souls, Joseph Garcin, Inèz Serrano, and Estelle Rigault, are brought to the same room in Hell and locked inside by a mysterious valet. They had all expected torture devices to punish them for eternity, but instead, find a plain room furnished in the style of the French 'Second Empire'. At first, none of them will admit the reason for their damnation: Garcin says that he was executed for being an outspoken pacifist, while Estelle insists that a mistake has been made; Inèz, however, is the only one to demand that they all stop lying to themselves and confess to their moral crimes. She refuses to believe that they have all ended up in the room by accident and soon realizes that they have been placed together to make each other miserable. She deduces that they are to be one another's torturers.
Image

Re: Christianity

Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:45 pm
by Dontaskme
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:53 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:10 pm You tripping again IC :wink:
Not talking to you, DAM. Can't deal with the drama.
You need to deal with your own drama of telling people they will go to hell and be tortured forever, for having the wrong philosophy.

You need to deal with that physical threat made to innocent loving people.

Of course you do not want to talk to me, I'm just getting in the way of your agenda to throw around evil threats. It's your way or the highway... yeah we all get it, except for you. :shock:

Re: Christianity

Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:10 pm
by henry quirk
You need to deal with your own drama of telling people they will go to hell and be tortured forever, for having the wrong philosophy.

When I told my kid, when he was little, not to hit others, and, after I patiently explained why it was wrong, and explained the consequence for disobeying, he goes and does it anyway: what was I supposed to do? Not follow thru?

If God indeed laid out the rules, explaining each, explaining the consequences for breakin' 'em, and folks go ahead and break 'em anyway: what's He supposed to do?

Re: Christianity

Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:34 pm
by Dontaskme
henry quirk wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:10 pm You need to deal with your own drama of telling people they will go to hell and be tortured forever, for having the wrong philosophy.

When I told my kid, when he was little, not to hit others, and, after I patiently explained why it was wrong, and explained the consequence for disobeying, he goes and does it anyway: what was I supposed to do? Not follow thru?

If God indeed laid out the rules, explaining each, explaining the consequences for breakin' 'em, and folks go ahead and break 'em anyway: what's He supposed to do?
I agree with what you are saying, except for one thing...the title ''God'' not that there is anything wrong with naming and shaming what is just a label, it's what's inside the can that really matters, because the label is not the actual product. So the label is irrelevant.

We do not need a ''title'' to already know that breaking physical laws such as hurting others, when you already know that's a bad idea, simply because you would not take a whip out to your own self, unless you were a masochist.

We already know inflicting pain is bad. That's just basic common mechanical physics known to the human brain.

We do not need a book to inform us of what is always self evidently innate to every sentient living organism that is capable of feeling pain.

The Xtians are using the biblical human psyop as a weapon against ordinary loving compassionate people who do good, just out of the wisdom of their own hearts, and not what some Holy Book has dictated to them.

That is my argument about the religious preachers. Preaching the idea that people are born sinners is evil.

Think of this way... A child is informed by it's daddy that hurting others is wrong, then the child learns later on that God also says the same thing daddy said. And you wonder why the human race is fucked up, the emotional child abuse started when you gave the child a name. And that's the huge problem that humanity has to unravel to it's basic core. Which is the emperor really has no clothes, and that we are all as naked and innocent as the day we were born.

Just fuck off with your BS, evil Xtians.

.

Re: Christianity

Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:49 pm
by Alexis Jacobi
henry quirk wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:10 pmIf God indeed laid out the rules, explaining each, explaining the consequences for breakin' 'em, and folks go ahead and break 'em anyway: what's He supposed to do?
It may perhaps seem as if I am making light of an answer, but it does occur to me to attempt to point out that in contrast to an Eternal Hell, the God who has made the rules that will inevitably get broken, should design a sort of paradigm where those errant souls go from one situation after another of living the consequences of their choices until finally (one imagines this is possible) they *get it* and decide to make different choices.

It is on this basis that the notion of an eternal hell has always seemed to me dubious. But then, at least in respect to some Eastern philosophies which imagine very different afterworld scenarios, they also propose that heavenly worlds are similarly temporary. You gain enough *merit* to incarnate in a *heaven* (of differing qualities and characteristics) but eventually your merit runs out. And you have to incarnate back down into one of those worlds like our worlds.

One thing about the Christian story (in the sense of one life lived, one chance to get it right, but if you fail an eternal condemnation) is that it can be said to lack imagination. It simply seems to me that God would be much more inventive. There must always be -- mustn't there? -- a way out.

Similarly, there really must be many many different levels to 'Heaven'.

Or there is another idea that has occurred to me: Let's consider *the moment of death*. What might happen in that moment, or that instant, right after physical death? It is quite possible that a given soul would or could be offered (let's say) all sorts of alternatives in order to adjust the outcome. Very much like the way a parent deals with a child. We see them as they struggle against themselves, against their pride, in all their rebelliousness, but often in pure willfulness, so as not to see, not to understand, not to *get it*. It is only later that they get it.

So it occurs to me that any number of different things could take place after one is technically dead. One could live in the space of a moment (that is, a moment in time -- time that is applicable to us but does not exist in 'the other world') one entire life in a hell-realm, or in any case in the *consequence* of those choices one had made in the life just lived. Or one could in the space of a second life 10 lives. But still be in a process of being weighed and judged.

What seems unlikely to me is that any mere mortal could second-guess the Supreme Being. That Supreme Being must be infinitely more crafty, and infinitely more capable, of attaining his will (excuse the masculine pronoun ladies, but you understand how language works ...)

It seems more logical, and more likely, that the God of all souls always gets his man.

😉

Re: Christianity

Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:06 pm
by Alexis Jacobi
henry quirk wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:10 pmIf God indeed laid out the rules, explaining each, explaining the consequences for breakin' 'em, and folks go ahead and break 'em anyway: what's He supposed to do?
I hope that the kind souls here will forgive me my references to Eastern visions. I think that they do very much have some bearing on how in the Occident we have conceived 'the ends of history'.

Consider the 10th Avatar of Vishnu (Kalki):
Kalkin (meaning "eternity" or "time"; also rendered as Kalki or Kalika) is the tenth and final Avatar of the Hindu God Vishnu. According to Hinduism, Kalkin's arrival on earth will mark the end the current epoch, the Kali Yuga, the fourth and final stage in the history of the universe. The origins of the name probably lie in the word Kalka which refers to "dirt," "filth" or "foulness" and hence denotes the idea that Kalkin is the "Destroyer of the Foulness and Ignorance" that characterizes the Kali Yuga. Kalki is also referred to as "the white horse," and is commonly depicted as a scimitar-wielding Vishnu mounted upon such an animal. In Hindi, kal ki avatar means "tomorrow's avatar."
Scholars have noted a striking similarity between the eschatological imagery associated with the Hindu avatar Kalkin and the apocalyptic return of Jesus depicted in the Book of Revelation. It is possible that, historically, Hindu descriptions of a future savior figure had an influence on Christian views of the apocalypse, or vice-versa. It is also possible that the source of revelation and inspiration that informs spiritual seers and visionaries is One. "Kalki" is also an important term in the Buddhist tradition of Kalachakra, where it is related to many prophesied enlightened rulers.
Due to Kalkin's pending arrival, he is naturally the most mysterious of the avatars. As is the case with the prophecies of many traditions, there are diverse beliefs and depictions within Hinduism as to when, how, where and why Kalkin will appear. Most common accounts declare Kalkin will arrive on earth intent on eradicating the reign of evil. His first action will be to vanquish the demon Kali (not to be confused with the Hindu Goddess Kali), who has taken the earth under his control, thereby freeing its citizens from moral and spiritual devolution. Kalkin will then reconcile all opposites, and renew the processes of the Dharma (Paths of Virtue) and Creation. Ultimately, he will establishing a reign of righteousness upon the earth, ushering in a golden age of peace and harmony, and thereby setting in motion the next cycle of the universe.
We better get our heads together! 😂