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Still haven't figured out the difference between "will" and "must"? God knows what we "will" do, but that is not always what we "must" do. In the case of free will there is no "must".
You still not understood what omniscience must involve? You have one you don't have the other regardless of whether it's your 'god' or not doing the determination and if it's not then your 'God' would also appear not to be omnipotent to boot.thedoc wrote:Still haven't figured out the difference between "will" and "must"? God knows what we "will" do, but that is not always what we "must" do. In the case of free will there is no "must".
I do understand omniscience, but I also understand that to grant free will, God must first have free will, and that means that God can know everything that will happen, and God can choose to know everything in advance or not. That is optional, God is not a robot that must respond in a certain way to certain stimuli.Arising_uk wrote: ↑Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:43 pmYou still not understood what omniscience must involve? You have one you don't have the other regardless of whether it's your 'god' or not doing the determination and if it's not then your 'God' would also appear not to be omnipotent to boot.thedoc wrote:Still haven't figured out the difference between "will" and "must"? God knows what we "will" do, but that is not always what we "must" do. In the case of free will there is no "must".
Omniscience and free will are not just compatible, it is logically necessary they be so -- as I explained upthread.
Relax, thedoc: it's easier than that, even.thedoc wrote: ↑Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:56 pm I do understand omniscience, but I also understand that to grant free will, God must first have free will, and that means that God can know everything that will happen, and God can choose to know everything in advance or not. That is optional, God is not a robot that must respond in a certain way to certain stimuli.
So it's your fault that Sunderland won't win!Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:43 amRelax, thedoc: it's easier than that, even.thedoc wrote: ↑Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:56 pm I do understand omniscience, but I also understand that to grant free will, God must first have free will, and that means that God can know everything that will happen, and God can choose to know everything in advance or not. That is optional, God is not a robot that must respond in a certain way to certain stimuli.
Omniscience is not Determinism.
Omniscience is a descriptor of what Someone knows, whether or not He has any causal involvement in it. Determinism is a description of what is actually forced or made to come about. There are plenty of things I know without having taken any role at all in making them come about.
I "know" that Sunderland will not win the Premier League in 2018. That doesn't mean they can blame me for it. Or again, just because I know you will write back a response does not mean I made you do it. Again, I may "know" you will not eat pizza due to your lactose problem; that does not mean that I am making you not eat pizza.
Omniscience does not entail or require Determinism.
Not so. I'm beginning to understand Harbal's and VT's dislike for you.thedoc wrote:Highly improbable that AK would think about anything.
Not so, the knee-jerk reaction is yours toward anything that critiques your belief in your 'God'.thedoc wrote: It's more like an unthinking, knee jerk reaction.
Your 'God' cannot escape Logic and if what you are saying is that your 'God' could know everything in advance then there must be a determiner somewhere(as I've said it doesn't have to be your 'God' but if it isn't then I think you also have a problem with your 'God's' omnipotence) as from the moment your 'God' states what 'it' knows then the future has to be fixed and something must be fixing it. If you are saying your 'God' chooses not to know then it is not omniscient is it as 'it' doesn't know something.thedoc wrote:I do understand omniscience, but I also understand that to grant free will, God must first have free will, and that means that God can know everything that will happen, and God can choose to know everything in advance or not. That is optional, God is not a robot that must respond in a certain way to certain stimuli.
I have and so far I have a big problem in that you do not address the temporal factor in all this. When does this OA know what it is supposed to know? Because when it does then the future must be fixed for it to become true and that means no more freewill and no accidental events and this means to me a determining agent(DA) somewhere in the mix.davidm wrote:Omniscience and free will are not just compatible, it is logically necessary they be so -- as I explained upthread.
Suggest you carefully reread and think about it,
Well, there's that...and the fact that they've been relegated to the Championship level, and now won't be eligible.
Oh yes it does. Now it might not be the case that your 'God' is the determiner but if 'it' isn't and 'it' wants to be omniscient then there has to be one and if 'it' isn't it also implies that your 'God' is not omnipotent to boot. Take your example, ignoring that it is a negation, you actually cannot 'know' that this will absolutely the case. It might well turn out, however unlikely, that there was foul play in the 2017 season and the F.A. decide to relegate another team and re-instate Sunderland so your 'knowing' will not turn-out to be anything like the kind of omniscience you are claiming for your 'God'.Immanuel Can wrote:Relax, thedoc: it's easier than that, even.
Omniscience is not Determinism.
Omniscience is a descriptor of what Someone knows, whether or not He has any causal involvement in it. Determinism is a description of what is actually forced or made to come about. There are plenty of things I know without having taken any role at all in making them come about.
I "know" that Sunderland will not win the Premier League in 2018. That doesn't mean they can blame me for it. Or again, just because I know you will write back a response does not mean I made you do it. Again, I may "know" you will not eat pizza due to your lactose problem; that does not mean that I am making you not eat pizza.
Omniscience does not entail or require Determinism.