Philosophy Now Forum

Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:26 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:19 pm

Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:00 pm I.C., you seem to be quite adept at dancing around the distortions and lies you use...

Name one.

Read this thread for yourself

What do you think I've been doing?

Name one.

"Catholic/Christian Europe built a civilization that endured for 1,000 years. It was based on extremely defined metaphysical ground. It was the strength or the intensity of that established ground that allowed for the creation (our civilization) to come into existence. Then, at a certain moment, and over the course of a certain amount of time, the foundation was undermined."

i hear that a lot, but i doubt the foundations of a civilization or empire lie in the religious beliefs of that culture rather than the economic practices of that culture... which in fact give rise to and make possible sustaining a religious culture at all. incidentally, the entire history of jewish and christian mythology is in essence a kind of manifestion of Hegel's master/slave dialectic... a collection of ideas generated by a slavish class of people which reflect the psychological undercurrents of great suffering, disadvantage, misfortune, etc. i dunno how famiar u r with Nietzsche's analysis of Christianity and its jewish origins, but it'd save me some time if u were cuz then i could just be like 'yeah what he said'.

anyway imagine that a religion with the dynamics of Christianity couldn't exist, and perhaps wouldn't even be invented, in a civilization in which there wuz no such disparity of class, property, wealth and social status.

and u already know where this argument goes. the jews and the Roman empire needed a Marxodus, not an Exodus. Christianity might not even still be on the books right now if they had.  

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:34 pm]
What do you think I've been doing?

That’s a good question. What have you been doing? and What is it that you do?

Deciphering this, deciphering you, is a task with a huge reward. What others do, and also what I do, is to attempt to answer the question that you cannot conceive of as having value.

You must be overcome because what you do-are is a dead-end (certainly it seems for all of us but in different ways and with different emphases).

We are stimulated in the sight of you to molt.

molt (mōlt)
v. molt·ed, molt·ing, molts
v.intr.
To shed part or all of a coat or an outer covering, such as feathers, cuticle, or skin, which is then replaced by a new growth.
v.tr.
To shed or cast off (a bodily covering).
n.
1. The act or process of molting.
2. The material cast off during molting.
[Alteration of Middle English mouten, from Old English -mūtian (in bemūtian, to exchange for), from Latin mūtāre, to change; see mei- in Indo-European roots.]

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 8:21 pm That’s a good question.

A better question is, "What's your definition of 'Christian'?"

Which you apparently can't say.

promethean75 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 8:19 pm i dunno how famiar u r with Nietzsche's analysis of Christianity and its jewish origins, but it'd save me some time if u were cuz then i could just be like 'yeah what he said'.

anyway imagine that a religion with the dynamics of Christianity couldn't exist, and perhaps wouldn't even be invented, in a civilization in which there wuz no such disparity of class, property, wealth and social status.

and u already know where this argument goes. the jews and the Roman empire needed a Marxodus, not an Exodus. Christianity might not even still be on the books right now if they had.

I am familiar with Nietzsche’s critique.

I worry that your Marxian class-analysis is too reductive but surely it plays a part. My own research takes me in distinct directions.

promethean75 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 8:19 pm "Catholic/Christian"

Well, that's one definition of "Christian," alright. It's just not a very good one.

Here's a much better discussion of the topic, if you want to tune that definition up. Note that some Catholics say, "I'm a Catholic, not a Christian." And also note that some Catholics regard themselves as Catholics and Christians. Note that a great many Christians also declare, "I'm a Christian, not a Catholic."

But in any case, not all Catholics are Christians, and that not all Christians are Catholics.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Catholic-Christian.html

i dunno how famiar u r with Nietzsche's analysis of Christianity and its jewish origins, but it'd save me some time if u were cuz then i could just be like 'yeah what he said'.

Very familiar. Nietzsche got a whole lot wrong. He had very little real understanding of Christianity, and less of Judaism.

see the angry father figure provider protector punisher monotheistic meme coulda only got started in the culture of a vengeful class of oppressed people who needed a god with those characteristics to satisfy the psychological struggling for purpose and meaning that they experienced.

compare norse or celtic mythology to jewish monotheism. there is not a hint of shame, fear or depression of instinct and will in the former, while the latter is not only full of it, but depends on it.

only a people at war with themselves struggling to understand centuries of bad fortune from egypt to rome... what did they do to deserve this and how can they be redeemed, etc... could think up such morbid theology. look at the branches of aryanism from the vedic religion to the zoroastrianism and the islam that spawned from the admixture of abrahamism. none of these are as vindictive and self-incriminating as the jewish/christian theology... which emanates guilt and self-denial. jesus it's so horrible I can't even talk about it. no wonder fritz went insane when trying to explain it.

And look at the Chinese. If u approached a typical Chinese citizen on the street and told him he's going to hell unless he believes this guy who was executed by the Romans died for his sins and then came back alive, etc., he'd laugh at u.

Grenzen der Menschheit
Goethe
(The Limits of Mankind)

When the holy,
Ancient father,
With an impassive hand,
Strews beneficent bolts of lightning
Over the earth
From behind the rolling clouds,
I kiss the furthermost
Hem of his garment,
A childlike sense of awe
Steadfast within my heart.
For up against the gods
No man
Should measure himself.
If he raises himself
And touches the stars
With his head,
Nowhere can the insecure
Soles of his feet take grip,
And he will be the plaything
Of the winds and the clouds.
If he stands firm
On vigorous bone
On well-established,
Enduring soil,
He will reach a height
To compare himself
Only to the oak
Or the vine.
What distinguishes
Gods from men?
The former make
Waves a-plenty;
A never-ending stream.
We are raised up by waves,
Waves consume us
And we go under.
A small ring
Is the limit of our life,
And the many generations
Ceaselessly link them
To the endless chain
Of their existence.

I should have known you'd post the ol' Grenzen der Menschheit on me. Few men can reckon with such masters as Goethe, and I stand in awe before this piece of writing.

For three days shall I meditate on it.

promethean75 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 9:47 pm I should have known you'd post the ol' Grenzen der Menschheit on me. Few men can reckon with such masters as Goethe, and I stand in awe before this piece of writing.

For three days shall I meditate on it.

Poetry and music are known to make the creative, or right, side of the brain work harder while making the left side, which is for critical thinking, work less. You should also remember Voltaire's warning that "anything that is too stupid to be spoken is sung," before delving too deeply into Goethe's words of wisdom. Don't let rhymes seduce you. That's just a general rule I strive to live by. Be cautious, and critical.

There is nothing special about this poem whether read in German or English. Whereas Goethe was indeed a great poet he dabbled too often in sentimentality. This poem offers no insight in anything.

I have it in Braille and it really shines . . .

Dubious often it seems your hard pronouncements are expressions of personal limitations.

Be that as it may the attitude communicated in the poem has the most importance. It connects to other attitudes and ideas which ground otherworldliness and thus are of use to us.

My interest (personally of course) is in those antidotes to the infiltration of eastern ideas and the recovery by a people of those attitudes and elements that can define a new and better modality.

After the occupation that is a necessary work.

Well then. I think we can say with a degree of certainty that BigMike and Dubious are not among Goethe's greatest fans.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 11:29 pmDubious often it seems your hard pronouncements are expressions of personal limitations.

I think you will agree that everyone has them to a greater or lesser degree. I don't known anyone personally or by reputation who hasn't.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 11:29 pmBe that as it may the attitude communicated in the poem has the most importance. It connects to other attitudes and ideas which ground otherworldliness and thus are of use to us.

It's well-written but I find its sentiments mundane.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 11:29 pmMy interest (personally of course) is in those antidotes to the infiltration of eastern ideas and the recovery by a people of those attitudes and elements that can define a new and better modality.

Sorry, but I don't quite get the gist of your meaning here.

I like Goethe best when he's least philosophic. One of my favorite poems by him - among others - is Der Gott und die Bajadere (Indische Legende). Both the story and its expression in German are totally magnificent. Nevertheless, as a thinker and philosopher, Schiller, imho, supersedes Goethe, many of whose poems are equal to that of the older master both in content and narration.

Dubious wrote: ↑Tue Nov 15, 2022 12:07 am.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 11:29 pmMy interest (personally of course) is in those antidotes to the infiltration of eastern ideas and the recovery by a people of those attitudes and elements that can define a new and better modality.

Sorry, but I don't quite get the gist of your meaning here.

As we move forward I will make efforts to explain. In my own case I’d say it is the very essence of what I am attempting to resolve.

Btw did you read any Gerhart Hauptmann?