Philosophy Now Forum

henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Jun 30, 2024 12:04 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jun 30, 2024 3:59 am...and it does him the favour of returning his attention to reality, instead of to fancies he's deceiving himself with. So you're not only not denying him anything he can ever actually have, but you're therapeutic for him if you contribut to the defeating of his delusions.

This is true, yes, but, honestly, I don't care. I don't care if the faux-woman ever wises up. He can wallow in his crazy. My concern is denying him my approval of, my participation in, my submission to, his whackadoodlism.

And that's right: you don't owe him any such thing.

Harbal: Nobody has to agree with anybody's moral view.

IC: Actually, they do...if that view is to allow us to form a society, a justice system, a system of distribution, a set of human rights....

Note that when the social, policial and moral agreements break down, then the bonds with which and through which that society, indeed that civilization, was constructed and held together, begins to come undone.

What is interesting to think about is that the agreements I am referencing are social and interpersonal: like the disagreements (lack of agreements) between IC and Harbal (and between so many on this forum).

Because we do not agree, we could never combine forces in general social projects. When people in a society cannot agree at fundamental levels they must disassociate from one another. Each to his corner as it were.

But here is the thing I’ve been thinking about: in that situation it falls to the governmental structure to holds society together. But not through exalted interpersonal sentiment. Just the physical structures and the rules and regulations that have been established.

If people no longer live in solidarity on ideological and indeed on spiritual levels, then the only binding glue is the governing structure. Or perhaps corporate entities with a false glue.

phyllo wrote: ↑Sun Jun 30, 2024 11:41 am Jesus never used the words "messiah" or "christ". Check your bible.

Phyllo, you have perspectives that are confusing. Even if we take the Gospels as mere narratives or tales it is obvious within the structure of them that a) Jesus is the Messiah prophesied in previous scripture and b) knew who he was.

The whole picture or revelation depends on this understanding. And if Jesus had a mission how could he not have known what it was?

There is really no alternative interpretation of the Gospel message that could prevail over its self-evident central message.

Jesus was the messiah in the Gospels. And how could it be supposed that he did not know this? (Which is in some sense what you are insinuating, unless I am reading you wrong).

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:34 am

Harbal wrote: ↑Sun Jun 30, 2024 8:13 am Nobody has to agree with anybody's moral view.

Actually, they do...if that view is to allow us to form a society, a justice system, a system of distribution, a set of human rights....

To be able to agree is not the same as having to agree. Fortunately, there is enough agreement for us to achieve the above; otherwise women would still have to be putting up with no abortion rights and gays would still be forced to live secret lives, for example.

IC wrote:

Harbal wrote:If that's a problem, then you also have a problem.

No, actually: as an objectivist, I have no such problem. As a Subjectivist, it's entirely yours.

I don't see how that is the case. People are just as free to disagree with your moral view as they are with mine, and are far more likely to, from what I've seen.

IC wrote:

Harbal wrote:...and it seems that sometimes people are born with a mismatch between the two.

What is your evidence for that belief, that "seeming"? How do you know that what a 13 year old boy imagines a "girl" is, is what a girl is? Or how do you conclude that what a 13 year old girl thinks a "boy" is, is a boy?

Gender dysphoria is a recognised condition. The fact that you might refuse to recognise it makes no difference to that.

IC wrote:

Harbal wrote:I only have a rationale for stopping him on the basis that biology does count, so I can't answer your question.

If it's biology that makes him a male, then transing is simply impossible.

It is impossible for a biological male to become a biological female, but "transing", whatever that involves, apparently makes life more bearable for these people. I don't quite understand why it makes life less bearable for you.

IC wrote:

Harbal wrote:I would be oppressing him if I tried to prevent him from living the life he wants to live within the limits of social practicality.

Where is it objectively written, "People have a right to live any way they want to?" Maybe you can quote that holy scripture to me.

If I were the sort of person to quote holy scriptures, I would be ashamed of myself.

IC wrote:

Harbal wrote:Why can't we just try to accommodate him without giving into any unreasonable demands he might have?

The demand for a boy to be a girl is unreasonable. As you admit, it defies biology and psychology, and has no relation to reality we can detect.

But if those involved can detect it, and it enables them to live a more satisfying life, what sort of mean spirited twat would object to that?

Harbal wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 5:44 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:34 am

Harbal wrote: ↑Sun Jun 30, 2024 8:13 am Nobody has to agree with anybody's moral view.

Actually, they do...if that view is to allow us to form a society, a justice system, a system of distribution, a set of human rights....

To be able to agree is not the same as having to agree. Fortunately, there is enough agreement for us to achieve the above; otherwise women would still have to be putting up with no abortion rights and gays would still be forced to live secret lives, for example.

IC wrote:

Harbal wrote:If that's a problem, then you also have a problem.

No, actually: as an objectivist, I have no such problem. As a Subjectivist, it's entirely yours.

I don't see how that is the case. People are just as free to disagree with your moral view as they are with mine, and are far more likely to, from what I've seen.

IC wrote:

Harbal wrote:...and it seems that sometimes people are born with a mismatch between the two.

What is your evidence for that belief, that "seeming"? How do you know that what a 13 year old boy imagines a "girl" is, is what a girl is? Or how do you conclude that what a 13 year old girl thinks a "boy" is, is a boy?

Gender dysphoria is a recognised condition. The fact that you might refuse to recognise it makes no difference to that.

IC wrote:

Harbal wrote:I only have a rationale for stopping him on the basis that biology does count, so I can't answer your question.

If it's biology that makes him a male, then transing is simply impossible.

It is impossible for a biological male to become a biological female, but "transing", whatever that involves, apparently makes life more bearable for these people. I don't quite understand why it makes life less bearable for you.

IC wrote:

Harbal wrote:I would be oppressing him if I tried to prevent him from living the life he wants to live within the limits of social practicality.

Where is it objectively written, "People have a right to live any way they want to?" Maybe you can quote that holy scripture to me.

If I were the sort of person to quote holy scriptures, I would be ashamed of myself.

IC wrote:

Harbal wrote:Why can't we just try to accommodate him without giving into any unreasonable demands he might have?

The demand for a boy to be a girl is unreasonable. As you admit, it defies biology and psychology, and has no relation to reality we can detect.

But if those involved can detect it, and it enables them to live a more satisfying life, what sort of mean spirited twat would object to that?

Are you really this thick? Go and get castrated then (not that it would make any difference). Just stay out of women's toilets. Sorted.

accelafine wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 9:40 am

Harbal wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 5:44 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:34 am
Actually, they do...if that view is to allow us to form a society, a justice system, a system of distribution, a set of human rights....

To be able to agree is not the same as having to agree. Fortunately, there is enough agreement for us to achieve the above; otherwise women would still have to be putting up with no abortion rights and gays would still be forced to live secret lives, for example.

IC wrote: No, actually: as an objectivist, I have no such problem. As a Subjectivist, it's entirely yours.

I don't see how that is the case. People are just as free to disagree with your moral view as they are with mine, and are far more likely to, from what I've seen.

IC wrote: What is your evidence for that belief, that "seeming"? How do you know that what a 13 year old boy imagines a "girl" is, is what a girl is? Or how do you conclude that what a 13 year old girl thinks a "boy" is, is a boy?

Gender dysphoria is a recognised condition. The fact that you might refuse to recognise it makes no difference to that.

IC wrote: If it's biology that makes him a male, then transing is simply impossible.

It is impossible for a biological male to become a biological female, but "transing", whatever that involves, apparently makes life more bearable for these people. I don't quite understand why it makes life less bearable for you.

IC wrote: Where is it objectively written, "People have a right to live any way they want to?" Maybe you can quote that holy scripture to me.

If I were the sort of person to quote holy scriptures, I would be ashamed of myself.

IC wrote: The demand for a boy to be a girl is unreasonable. As you admit, it defies biology and psychology, and has no relation to reality we can detect.

But if those involved can detect it, and it enables them to live a more satisfying life, what sort of mean spirited twat would object to that?

Are you really this thick? Go and get castrated then (not that it would make any difference). Just stay out of women's toilets. Sorted.

I'm not going to condemn a whole class of people just because of a few radical, outspoken, unreasonable nut cases among their number. And I'm certainly not going to condemn them just because you happen to have a bee in your bonnet about them. And try to control that temper of yours; it's getting very irritating.

..wot a ridiculous pile of crap humanity has become..

..to cower to sentiments of upsetting people..we R NOW PATHETIC slaves to the establishment.

The ELITE establishment from their ivory towers - ya know - the TWO party system of ""democracy"" insists WE ALL ACCEPT their agenda gender crap..

They insist we that are of common sense are RADICAL...and..."FAR RIGHT" when they spray hatred across our forebears memorials supporting EVIL ideology of Hamas etc..

CHANGE is coming - the intelligence will be restored that is worth_Y of what our diggers sacrificed their lives for..and..

IT WASN'T FOR ELITES IN WESTMINSTER TO CONTINUE TO PASS THE BUCK BETWEEN ---- LABOUR -AND- CONSERVATIVE ...for time immemorial

TIME IS UP.


REFORM is overdue..

REFORM UK is required..

attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 10:26 am

REFORM is overdue..

REFORM UK is required..

Yes, let's put Mr. Toad in charge, that'll fix things.

Harbal wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 11:16 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 10:26 am

REFORM is overdue..

REFORM UK is required..

Yes, let's put Mr. Toad in charge, that'll fix things.

There are so many facial expressions that Nigel has...

Maybe spend a penny of thought about what is happening to our country COURTESY of two switch arooo the buck is on you...pathetic imbeciles not worthy of a vote - two mainstream parties that ""Democratic""" UK think are appropriate (** both are the same fish **)

Under_stand what the Reform is about:

Zia Yusuf Full Speech - Rally for Reform UK 30th June 2024
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQHn_RivO2Q

attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 11:27 am

Harbal wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 11:16 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 10:26 am

REFORM is overdue..

REFORM UK is required..

Yes, let's put Mr. Toad in charge, that'll fix things.

There are so many facial expressions that Nigel has...

Maybe spend a penny of thought about what is happening to our country COURTESY of two switch arooo the buck is on you...pathetic imbeciles not worthy of a vote - two mainstream parties that ""Democratic""" UK think are appropriate (** both are the same fish **)

Under_stand what the Reform is about:

Zia Yusuf Full Speech - Rally for Reform UK 30th June 2024
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQHn_RivO2Q

If only running a country properly required the same skill set as getting a crowd to cheer by telling them what they want to hear.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:26 am

phyllo wrote: ↑Sun Jun 30, 2024 11:41 am Jesus never used the words "messiah" or "christ". Check your bible.

Phyllo, you have perspectives that are confusing. Even if we take the Gospels as mere narratives or tales it is obvious within the structure of them that a) Jesus is the Messiah prophesied in previous scripture and b) knew who he was.

The whole picture or revelation depends on this understanding. And if Jesus had a mission how could he not have known what it was?

There is really no alternative interpretation of the Gospel message that could prevail over its self-evident central message.

Jesus was the messiah in the Gospels. And how could it be supposed that he did not know this? (Which is in some sense what you are insinuating, unless I am reading you wrong).

It's not about Jesus. It's about Trump. And It's about being literal.
Specifically this :

Gary said:
He is not some kind of Messiah.

IC replied:
Wow. To my knowledge, that's not a claim he's ever made. Can you give me a reference for that, Gary?

I've noticed that sometimes IC will focus on some small trivial point and declare victory when that people can't counter that specific point.

In this case, I expected IC to declare victory when Gary could not find a quote where trump said "I am the messiah".

Well, Trump often talks about himself as the saving America and saving the world. He compares himself to Jesus without using the word "Jesus". And when his 'fans' compare him to the messiah, he doesn't deny it or repudiate it.

IC will naturally ignore all that and focus on Trump using the exact word.

I'm just giving it back to him. Jesus never used the word "messiah". Trump never used the word "messiah".

Harbal wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 11:51 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 11:27 am

Harbal wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 11:16 am

Yes, let's put Mr. Toad in charge, that'll fix things.

There are so many facial expressions that Nigel has...

Maybe spend a penny of thought about what is happening to our country COURTESY of two switch arooo the buck is on you...pathetic imbeciles not worthy of a vote - two mainstream parties that ""Democratic""" UK think are appropriate (** both are the same fish **)

Under_stand what the Reform is about:

Zia Yusuf Full Speech - Rally for Reform UK 30th June 2024
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQHn_RivO2Q

If only running a country properly required the same skill set as getting a crowd to cheer by telling them what they want to hear.

Harbal Y do U insist on under estimating what is going on?


Have an atto challenge:

1. Keir Stermer
2. Rishi Sunkal
3. Nigel Farage

What policies from the above politicians will provide the best outcome for the YOUTH and future of Britain?

phyllo wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 11:53 am

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:26 am

phyllo wrote: ↑Sun Jun 30, 2024 11:41 am Jesus never used the words "messiah" or "christ". Check your bible.

Phyllo, you have perspectives that are confusing. Even if we take the Gospels as mere narratives or tales it is obvious within the structure of them that a) Jesus is the Messiah prophesied in previous scripture and b) knew who he was.

The whole picture or revelation depends on this understanding. And if Jesus had a mission how could he not have known what it was?

There is really no alternative interpretation of the Gospel message that could prevail over its self-evident central message.

Jesus was the messiah in the Gospels. And how could it be supposed that he did not know this? (Which is in some sense what you are insinuating, unless I am reading you wrong).

It's not about Jesus. It's about Trump. And It's about being literal.
Specifically this :

Gary said:
He is not some kind of Messiah.

IC replied:
Wow. To my knowledge, that's not a claim he's ever made. Can you give me a reference for that, Gary?

I've noticed that sometimes IC will focus on some small trivial point and declare victory when that people can't counter that specific point.

In this case, I expected IC to declare victory when Gary could not find a quote where trump said "I am the messiah".

Well, Trump often talks about himself as the saving America and saving the world. He compares himself to Jesus without using the word "Jesus". And when his 'fans' compare him to the messiah, he doesn't deny it or repudiate it.

IC will naturally ignore all that and focus on Trump using the exact word.

I'm just giving it back to him. Jesus never used the word "messiah". Trump never used the word "messiah".

https://youtu.be/_JsAQj36gCU?si=HWsU7MQ6wZ44VM5u

Nice one, Harbal.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 12:00 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 11:51 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 11:27 am

There are so many facial expressions that Nigel has...

Maybe spend a penny of thought about what is happening to our country COURTESY of two switch arooo the buck is on you...pathetic imbeciles not worthy of a vote - two mainstream parties that ""Democratic""" UK think are appropriate (** both are the same fish **)

Under_stand what the Reform is about:

Zia Yusuf Full Speech - Rally for Reform UK 30th June 2024
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQHn_RivO2Q

If only running a country properly required the same skill set as getting a crowd to cheer by telling them what they want to hear.

Harbal Y do U insist on under estimating what is going on?


Have an atto challenge:

1. Keir Stermer
2. Rishi Sunkal
3. Nigel Farage

What policies from the above politicians will provide the best outcome for the YOUTH and future of Britain?

I haven't got a clue, but Farage is a con man.