Philosophy Now Forum

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 12:42 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 12:07 pm I've always been X years old, so I don't even know what it's like not to be X years old.

You seem younger. I would even have been shocked to find out you were W years old.

X is about right, but maybe a small x.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 1:00 pm

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 12:53 pm Then ya don't have to worry about what a Hertz is.

I know. But you have to.

Because it's circular.

Thank you for your concern. Rest assured it doesn't worry me in the slightest.

Harbal wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 1:04 pmX is about right, but maybe a small x.

For the record, on a scale of xs: xxxxx I reckon I'm second from the right.

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 1:11 pm Thank you for your concern. Rest assured it doesn't worry me in the slightest.

No assurance required.

It's pretty obvious that having no clue what you are talking about doesn't worry you in the slightest.

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 1:16 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 1:04 pmX is about right, but maybe a small x.

For the record, on a scale of xs: xxxxx I reckon I'm second from the right.

Well, to be strictly accurate, I must admit to being LXIX.

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 1:16 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 1:04 pmX is about right, but maybe a small x.

For the record, on a scale of xs: xxxxx I reckon I'm second from the right.

Second from the right as light travels; or as an ant travels?

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 8:22 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2024 8:13 pm

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 3:37 amEither God knows which of the five roads we are going to choose, or he doesn't.

He does. Just as I knew you'd reply. You could have chosen not to. You could have chosen to reply differently. But you replied as you saw fit, and I was quite right about my prediction.

The difference between God and you is that you made a prediction that happened to come true. Your God, on the other hand, did not predict that I would reply, he knew exactly how I would do so.

That's not a difference that makes any difference, really. That my prognostication was a good guess and His is a perfect knowing doesn't alter the dynamic one bit: it was your choice. You were uncompelled -- either by me or by God -- to write as you did. You chose what you chose.

And I'll bet that is exactly how you feel about it, too...and it's certainly the way you're acting when you debate. Because you don't say, "I am being compelled to make the following argument," but rather, "I think..." or "in my opinion," or some such phrase. You wouldn't naturally be willing to believe that the reason you and I see this differently is because you are compelled to see it that way by Determinism (either from God or from natural-law-type causal chains) and I am likewise compelled to see it my way, by the power of the same causal chains or fatalistic "god."

So if anybody sees it differently, the burden of proof is on them. They need to show you that Will and IC are not having a genuine disagreement at all, but merely "dancing to their [respective] DNA," or "being manipulated by a causal chain," or "being micromanaged by a deterministic 'god' of some sort." It feels, to Will and IC, as if their disparate viewpoints are their own, are being produced for reasons they have, and are being articulated by individuals free to do otherwise.

So how is the Determinist going to prove that all that is an illusion?

Unless I am mistaken, the two premises represent your beliefs:

God knows everything that we will ever do
God gave us freewill to choose what we do
Therefore freewill is the freedom to choose exactly what God already knows we are going to do.

Um...well, I'm sure you know this, but I have to say it anyway: your syllogism isn't sound. So it doesn't make sense, even on basic logical terms, because it doesn't follow logical structure. It doesn't even have a middle term, and it amphibolizes. That means that not only is the conclusion "avoidable," it's logically invalid, and is most improbable to contain a true conclusion; and if perchance it does, it would only be by accident, not by virtue of the rationale expressed.

So it can't possibly be a right articulation of what I believe, obviously. Let me see if I can suggest some way you could make your point in a formal syllogism. Do you mean to assert something like that you suppose I believe:

God has foreknowledge of what humans do.
Determinism (or "foremaking") is entailed in foreknowledge.
Therefore, God predetermines (or "foremakes") what humans do.

If that's what you mean, then premise 2 would be obviously false. Knowledge and determination are not the same, and don't entail each other. And, of course, I don't believe they do. But maybe that's not a right representation of your argument, so feel free to articulate it your own way. However, it will need to be in valid form in order to do justice to my argument, of course.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 1:44 pm

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 8:22 amThe difference between God and you is that you made a prediction that happened to come true. Your God, on the other hand, did not predict that I would reply, he knew exactly how I would do so.

That's not a difference that makes any difference, really. That my prognostication was a good guess and His is a perfect knowing doesn't alter the dynamic one bit: it was your choice. You were uncompelled -- either by me or by God -- to write as you did. You chose what you chose.

This is the one part of my previous post that you ignored:

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 8:22 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2024 8:13 pmBut I didn't make you.

That is not the issue. I predict that you will bury your head in the sand and pretend it is, but for the third time:

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 1:15 amI'm not suggesting there is any coercion from your God...

I have little doubt that you will continue to ignore the above.
Anyway, did God create this world knowing everything that would ever happen in it?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2024 8:13 pm

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 3:37 am Either God knows which of the five roads we are going to choose, or he doesn't.

He does. Just as I knew you'd reply.

No you did not.

you may well have guessed, assumed, or predicted that it would occur, but you, obviously, never knew, for sure, that it would.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2024 8:13 pm You could have chosen not to. You could have chosen to reply differently. But you replied as you saw fit, and I was quite right about my prediction.

But I didn't make you.

So what?

what you say 'you' knew here, besides being a lie, is absolutely nothing like what God knew.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 10:00 am

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 9:59 am

Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 9:42 amSo there once was a point where there wasn't time and then there was.

How do you know?

Because the question "How old is the universe?" has an answer.

Can 'the answer' be different from what you think or believe it is?

Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 10:00 am What was the universe up to 50 billion years ago?

The Universe, of course.

How could the Universe be anything else?

Age wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 10:21 am Can 'the answer' be different from what you think or believe it is?

Is the question identical with its meaning; or can this question mean something different from what you think or believe it means?

Age wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 10:21 am

Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 10:00 am What was the universe up to 50 billion years ago?

The Universe, of course.

How could the Universe be anything else?

So 36 billion year before it began the universe was up to itself?

What were you up to 100 years before you were born? Yourself?

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 10:04 am This is the one part of my previous post that you ignored:

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 8:22 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 14, 2024 8:13 pmBut I didn't make you.

That is not the issue. I predict that you will bury your head in the sand and pretend it is, but for the third time:

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 1:15 amI'm not suggesting there is any coercion from your God...

I have little doubt that you will continue to ignore the above.
Anyway, did God create this world knowing everything that would ever happen in it?

You mean this last line? Or which "above" bit? I'm sorry, Will; I'm not deliberately "ignoring" it, Rather, I'm just not seeing anything in the "above." If you know that there is no coercion from God, then Theistic Determinism is dead, of course. All that's left is secular Determinism, and that still lacks any evidence and sits under a heavy burden of proof. So what's left to clear up?

Maybe you can tease that out for me better.

As for the last question, I would point to two things: first, to the fact that "know" and "make" remain very different verbs, and the case for Determinism cannot be made from that angle without equivocating them. That's a logical fallacy, of course. But if you can create a syllogism that works, I'm open to seeing it. I'd be very interested in how that might be doable.

But maybe more importantly, God is capable of creating free-will agents. (So are you, actually, assuming you have no dysfunction in your reproductive system.) There is no logical inconsistency in saying that God creates people whose choices he knows beforehand, but whose choices He in no way manipulates or coerces. Every parent knows what that's like: you make the kid, and the kid makes his choices. Whether or not you're able to predict what choices your kid makes would have nothing to do with his actual freedom in making them.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 11:31 am

Age wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 10:21 am Can 'the answer' be different from what you think or believe it is?

Is the question identical with its meaning; or can this question mean something different from what you think or believe it means?

Did you want me to answer your question when you did not answer mine?

Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 11:31 am

Age wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 10:21 am

Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 10:00 am What was the universe up to 50 billion years ago?

The Universe, of course.

How could the Universe be anything else?

So 36 billion year before it began the universe was up to itself?

The Universe never began.

Why do you presume or believe that It did?

Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 11:31 am What were you up to 100 years before you were born? Yourself?

you are missing the whole point here, once more.

Age wrote: ↑Wed Apr 17, 2024 4:24 am

Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 11:31 am

Age wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 10:21 am Can 'the answer' be different from what you think or believe it is?

Is the question identical with its meaning; or can this question mean something different from what you think or believe it means?

Did you want me to answer your question when you did not answer mine?

Maybe. Why not?

Age wrote: ↑Wed Apr 17, 2024 4:24 am The Universe never began.

Why do you presume or believe that It did?

Because it has an age, Age. That's what having an age means. Time since it began.

Age wrote: ↑Wed Apr 17, 2024 4:24 am you are missing the whole point here, once more.

No, I am not.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 2:45 pmIf you know that there is no coercion from God, then Theistic Determinism is dead, of course.

Something is getting lost in translation because determinism doesn't equal coercion where I'm from. If I wind my watch, I know enough about clockwork that if I were to examine each component, I could tell you exactly how my intervention would unwind. People would think me mad if I said there was any coercion involved.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 2:45 pm..."know" and "make" remain very different verbs, and the case for Determinism cannot be made from that angle without equivocating them.

Once again: that is not the issue. It is a marvel of cognitive dissonance that you can believe both that God knows everything that we will do and that we are free to do other than what God knows we will do. All the more remarkable that you believe a limp piece of sophistry resolves it.