What could make morality objective?

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Veritas Aequitas
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Peter Holmes wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 5:32 pm VA. (My bad.) Do you agree that a description is not the described?

No need to bang on about what constitutes what we call a fact - or about fsks. A yes or no answer will do.
Since English is not my first language thus cannot express with the highest degree of efficiency, I asked ChatGpt [with reservation for help] to answer on my behalf;
  • "While I acknowledge the dichotomy posed in the question, the issue of whether a description is or is not the described is intricately tied to broader philosophical discussions such as realism and anti-realism.
    This binary framework might not fully capture the depth of perspectives on the relationship between language, perception, and reality.
    The nature of this philosophical inquiry is complex, and a comprehensive understanding requires considering various viewpoints and theoretical nuances.
    Therefore, a simple yes or no answer might not do justice to the richness of the debate."
Agree?
Peter Holmes
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Peter Holmes »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2023 7:16 am
Peter Holmes wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 5:32 pm VA. (My bad.) Do you agree that a description is not the described?

No need to bang on about what constitutes what we call a fact - or about fsks. A yes or no answer will do.
Since English is not my first language thus cannot express with the highest degree of efficiency, I asked ChatGpt [with reservation for help] to answer on my behalf;
  • "While I acknowledge the dichotomy posed in the question, the issue of whether a description is or is not the described is intricately tied to broader philosophical discussions such as realism and anti-realism.
    This binary framework might not fully capture the depth of perspectives on the relationship between language, perception, and reality.
    The nature of this philosophical inquiry is complex, and a comprehensive understanding requires considering various viewpoints and theoretical nuances.
    Therefore, a simple yes or no answer might not do justice to the richness of the debate."
Agree?
What's your opinion? Try thinking critically about this explanation. What does it actually say?

Can you produce a description that is the described - or could be called the described? Or a description that demonstrates an 'excluded middle' - subverting the 'binary framework': description/described?

Thought for the day. Antirealism isn't opposition to reality. So it must be something else.

Suggestion. Antirealism, in fact, is opposition to the claim that any one kind of description captures the actual nature or essence of reality - opposition to a monocular or blinkered way of thinking and talking about reality - the very source of talk about reality's fundamental nature or essence.

And that's either because we can never know what the fundamental nature or essence of reality is - or because reality has no fundamental nature or essence.

But if - as I think - reality has no fundamental nature or essence - or, as Wittgenstein jokingly put it, 'essence is grammatical' - then the claim that we can have no access to (can never 'know') reality's fundamental nature or essence is incoherent.

Or, to put it in Kantian terms, if there are no noumena, then the claim that all we can ever know are phenomena is incoherent.

(More thoughts pending. Of course.)
Last edited by Peter Holmes on Fri Oct 27, 2023 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Peter Holmes wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2023 8:19 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Oct 27, 2023 7:16 am
Peter Holmes wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 5:32 pm VA. (My bad.) Do you agree that a description is not the described?

No need to bang on about what constitutes what we call a fact - or about fsks. A yes or no answer will do.
Since English is not my first language thus cannot express with the highest degree of efficiency, I asked ChatGpt [with reservation for help] to answer on my behalf;
  • "While I acknowledge the dichotomy posed in the question, the issue of whether a description is or is not the described is intricately tied to broader philosophical discussions such as realism and anti-realism.
    This binary framework might not fully capture the depth of perspectives on the relationship between language, perception, and reality.
    The nature of this philosophical inquiry is complex, and a comprehensive understanding requires considering various viewpoints and theoretical nuances.
    Therefore, a simple yes or no answer might not do justice to the richness of the debate."
Agree?
What's your opinion? Try thinking critically about this explanation. What does it actually say?

Can you produce a description that is the described - or could be called the described? Or a description that demonstrates an 'excluded middle' - subverting the 'binary framework': description/described?
You keep trying to drag me into your kindi with ignorance of the critical nuances involved in is particular issue.
It is only within common sense and the linguistic FSK that a description is not the-described.

But there is a lot to it on how the description and the-described are interconnected.
Note this thread I raised,

Linking 'The-Described" to its Description?
viewtopic.php?t=41060
Do you have a counter for the above?

The following threads are related to the above issue;

Reality: Emergence & Realization Prior to Perceiving, Knowing & Describing
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40145

What is Emergence & Realization
viewtopic.php?t=40721

VA: Knowledge & Descriptions CANNOT Produce Facts
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39925 Apr 10, 2023

Perceiving, Knowing & Describing a Thing Not Related to Existence of the Thing
viewtopic.php?t=40715
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henry quirk
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by henry quirk »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 3:47 amthere are differences to be considered
Not by me.

I'm content to leave folks be in their hells and heavens.

What if they won't let you be, Henry?

Well, then we got a problem.
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by henry quirk »

iambiguous wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 11:52 pm
Elsewhere you posted...
Either someone is able to convince me that morality is in fact objective [and derived from God] and I am able to yank myself up out of the hole I have dug myself down into, or I am able to convince them that my frame of mind is reasonable, and they come down into the hole with me.
Seems to me a lotta folks have thrown you ropes. You've slapped each away for failin' to meet your criteria. Seems obvious you like being in the hole. Can't see any good reason to offer any more rope or to join you down there. It just ain't right to keep someone from doin' exactly what they wanna do to themselves. So: enjoy.
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henry quirk
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by henry quirk »

I have a question for all the moral subjectivists (so, moral objectivists, stand down). It's one I've asked before.

Why is slavery wrong?

Don't tell me you think it's wrong. Tell me why you think it's wrong. Give me your reasoning, please.
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iambiguous
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by iambiguous »

henry quirk wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2023 10:23 pm
iambiguous wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2023 11:52 pm
Elsewhere you posted...
Either someone is able to convince me that morality is in fact objective [and derived from God] and I am able to yank myself up out of the hole I have dug myself down into, or I am able to convince them that my frame of mind is reasonable, and they come down into the hole with me.
Seems to me a lotta folks have thrown you ropes. You've slapped each away for failin' to meet your criteria. Seems obvious you like being in the hole. Can't see any good reason to offer any more rope or to join you down there. It just ain't right to keep someone from doin' exactly what they wanna do to themselves. So: enjoy.
More to the point [mine] are all of these folks...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r ... traditions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_p ... ideologies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... philosophy

...who are more than willing to throw you a rope. And you slap each one away because they fail to meet your own "my way or the highway" criteria.

I don't have such self-righteous "God given" objectivist criteria myself.

And, no, I actually do not revel in the fact that I construe my own existence as essentially meaningless and purposeless...and in route to oblivion.
Peter Holmes
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Peter Holmes »

henry quirk wrote: Sat Oct 28, 2023 10:58 pm I have a question for all the moral subjectivists (so, moral objectivists, stand down). It's one I've asked before.

Why is slavery wrong?

Don't tell me you think it's wrong. Tell me why you think it's wrong. Give me your reasoning, please.
I think Henry's right to insist on trying to answer this - and any other - moral question.

'Slavery is morally wrong because...'

The answer may be another moral assertion - such as '...because it's morally wrong to own a human being as property' or '...because it's morally wrong to deprive someone of their liberty and autonomy - unless there's a good reason to do so' - and so on.

But that just puts the problem back: 'Why is it morally wrong to own a human being as property?' And this can go on for ever, unless it reaches a terminal moral assertion - which, of course, just provokes the same question: 'Why is X morally wrong?'

And this is where moral objectivists and realists conclude that it's just a fact that X is morally wrong. Which doesn't deflect the same question: 'Why is it a fact that X is morally wrong?'

To get out of this bind, some objectivists offer a non-moral answer or explanation for a moral question. For example: 'Slavery is morally wrong because...a person owns herself'. (And there are any number of such non-moral answers, including theistic ones about a supposed god's plan and wishes.)

But now the problem is that the reason offered doesn't answer the question. It merely makes a moral assumption, such as: 'Slavery is morally wrong because it's morally wrong to own something that belongs to someone else'. So we're back into the same regress of moral assertions.

Conclusion. At the end or bottom of any moral argument, there must be a moral assertion expressing a moral belief, judgement or opinion. Which is therefore subjective. Which is why morality is and must be subjective. Ain't no way out of it.
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Re: What could make morality objective?

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Peter Holmes wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 9:06 am
Pete, I appreciate your mini-essay. I'd appreciate it even more if you could tell me why you personally think slavery is wrong. Unless my memory fails, you have, multiple times, said slavery is wrong. I just wanna know why you, Peter Holmes, moral subjectivist, think slavery is wrong.

Please, give me your reasoning.
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Peter Holmes »

henry quirk wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 2:22 pm
Peter Holmes wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 9:06 am
Pete, I appreciate your mini-essay. I'd appreciate it even more if you could tell me why you personally think slavery is wrong. Unless my memory fails, you have, multiple times, said slavery is wrong. I just wanna know why you, Peter Holmes, moral subjectivist, think slavery is wrong.

Please, give me your reasoning.
Slavery harms people. And I think we should try to help others, rather than harm them.
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Harbal
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Harbal »

henry quirk wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 2:22 pm
Peter Holmes wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 9:06 am
Pete, I appreciate your mini-essay. I'd appreciate it even more if you could tell me why you personally think slavery is wrong. Unless my memory fails, you have, multiple times, said slavery is wrong. I just wanna know why you, Peter Holmes, moral subjectivist, think slavery is wrong.

Please, give me your reasoning.
As you have said yourself, nobody wants to be a slave, so everybody is bound to think slavery is wrong for themself, so it would hardly be reasonable to then suppose it was okay for everyone else. I mean, if everyone else was subject to the possibility of being enslaved, what grounds would I have for exempting myself from it.

And yes, henry, I know I'm not Peter Holmes.
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henry quirk
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by henry quirk »

Peter Holmes wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 3:21 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 2:22 pm
Peter Holmes wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 9:06 am
Pete, I appreciate your mini-essay. I'd appreciate it even more if you could tell me why you personally think slavery is wrong. Unless my memory fails, you have, multiple times, said slavery is wrong. I just wanna know why you, Peter Holmes, moral subjectivist, think slavery is wrong.

Please, give me your reasoning.
Slavery harms people. And I think we should try to help others, rather than harm them.
Repost, slightly edited...

Harmful by what standard? Certainly not a moral one that argues for individual dignity and sovereignty (becuz if morality is just personal and aggregated cultural opinion then what constitutes dignity and sovereignty is just opinion).

There are folks here who'll tell you slaves can be treated quite well. Sculptor, for example, can tell you that in certain societies house slaves were well cared for and proud of their status. It's malarky, sure, but there are moral subjectivists who'll back it.

Here's the thing: so what if it's harmful? In an amoral universe, that's just an opinion, one rejected by some moral subjectivists and by the powers that be since before man fell out of the trees.

Governments, for example, might prefer the citizenry to be happy and voluntarily productive but most won't hesitate to make folks settle down and be productive or abide and to hell if they, the people, like it or not. And, in an amoral universe, it doesn't really matter. You, Pete, may not like being pushed around but, without real morality, with only personal opinion or aggregated cultural opinion as morality, who cares? Pete doesn't wanna do X, not becuz it's wrong (how can it be wrong? morality is just personal opinion and might makes right) but becuz he doesn't like it. Boo friggin' hoo. Get back to the Soylent factory, guy and earn your Green.


Anyway, thanks for your answer.
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henry quirk
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by henry quirk »

Harbal wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 3:24 pm
No, I've said quite a bit more than nobody wants to be a slave.
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Harbal »

henry quirk wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 3:35 pm
Harbal wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 3:24 pm
No, I've said quite a bit more than nobody wants to be a slave.
Yes you have, but I left all the rubbish out, and just credited you with the bit that makes sense.
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Harbal »

henry quirk wrote: Sun Oct 29, 2023 3:30 pm (becuz if morality is just personal and aggregated cultural opinion then what constitutes dignity and sovereignty is just opinion).
Exactly so, henry. 🙂
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