Philosophy Now Forum

Posted: **Wed Nov 02, 2022 6:15 am**

wtf wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 6:04 am
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 4:09 am I would say the "justice Democrats" mentioned above are indeed just for sending such a letter and the warmongers are evil for attacking them. As far as retracting the letter, it's tragic that the "justice Democrats" did not possess the faith, backbone, intelligence or whatever to hold to their original position.
Then you and I are in agreement on this point. And it upsets me greatly. I'm an old lefty. Old enough to remember when the left stood for peace. This shameful cave-in by the leftmost members of the Democratic party is just the latest reminder that I didn't leave the left; the left left me.

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 4:14 am I take it Mersheimer calls "justice" something different from "morality" then?
Justice was the word you used. Mearsheimer talks about realism. The realist position is to recognize Russia's subjective interests (whether one thinks those positions are justified or not) and to negotiate based on an understanding of those interests.

If you favor rational negotiation, you would be taking Mearsheimer's position.

When you talk about "justice," what exactly do you mean? There was a peace proposal on the table as long ago as May. Ukraine declined to negotiate, and the US agreed. Nobody on the US or Ukrainian side want rational negotiation. They want war. I think that's a very dangerous policy. I can't figure out which side of this you're on. If you favor negotiation, that's the opposite of the US and Ukraine's current position, and it accords more with Mearsheimer's world view.

When I talk about Justice, I mean that physically invading a neighboring country that hasn't invaded you even as a preemptory precaution is no better than Isreal invading Lebanon or Gaza. Or the US invading Iraq. Yes, the US is supplying weapons to Ukraine and won't negotiate, it's wrong not to seek a peaceful resolution. But to say that Russia is "justified" in invading Ukraine seems to defy any sensible version of just war theory to me. Two wrongs don't make a right. That's not international cooperation, that's chaos. I don't see how anyone can favor Russia or anyone in this. The point is to take an internationalist stance, not to dip into local nationalist ones. The fact that we're even hostile toward Russia, China, N. Korea, and Iran to begin with is all wrong. With a stance like that, it's no wonder we have so much tension in the world. The powers that be have got it all wrong. Where are the peacemakers these days?

Posted: **Wed Nov 02, 2022 8:51 pm**

And around and around they go...

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/02/opin ... ation.html

Charles A. Kupchan at the New York Times
Dr. Kupchan is a professor of international affairs at Georgetown University and a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations.

And you don't get more "deep state ruling class" than the CFR.

'The war in Ukraine is dangerously escalating. Ukraine is advancing on the battlefield and is growing only more determined to expel Russian troops. In the meantime, the Kremlin reinforces its beleaguered forces in eastern Ukraine, pounds Ukrainian cities and critical infrastructure, and hints at the possible use of nuclear weapons. Meanwhile, the United States and its allies are speeding more weapons to Ukraine, prepared, as the Group of 7 leading democracies recently stated, to “stand firmly with Ukraine for as long as it takes.'

And...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... r-weapons/

at the Washington Post

'Russian military leaders’ talk of nuclear attack rattles U.S. calculus

'U.S. officials still maintain that Moscow is unlikely to go nuclear in Ukraine. But Washington doesn’t have many good options to prevent Putin’s worst intentions.

'As Russia punctuates its mounting losses in Ukraine with overt threats and private deliberations about the possible use of nuclear weapons and “dirty bombs,” Western leaders are being forced to grapple with whether Moscow is planning a dramatic escalation on the battlefield — a development that would leave the United States and NATO with a limited set of options to respond.

'President Biden and his advisers have been closely tracking the Kremlin’s signaling, which Biden has opined is pitching the world closer to “Armageddon” than at any point since the Cuban missile crisis. Cabinet-level officials, too, have been warning publicly that any move by Russia to make good on its threats will be answered “decisively,” with “catastrophic consequences.'

And today is Wednesday. As you'll recall, every Wednesday around 1:15 PM, the Martin State Airport provides us with one of those "this is a test" messages from the emergency broadcasting system. Today, it was just a test too.

But I'll let you know when it is no longer just a test.

After all, these "my dick is bigger than your dick" macho bastards might really bring about this “Armageddon".

Explain that to your children.

Posted: **Thu Nov 03, 2022 1:12 am**

iambiguous wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 8:51 pm After all, these "my dick is bigger than your dick" macho bastards might really bring about this “Armageddon".

At this point, my only hope is that there is a God and that God does something in the 11th hour to stop the insanity of our leaders. Otherwise, grab the picket signs "Just say no to Armageddon" and start chanting on the White House lawn, EVERYBODY. Twitter and other media are failing "we the people". We all see what is going on here. Most of the key people who can actually do something to stop this seem to have their heads so far up their assesses that if we're lucky they'll choke to death.

Posted: **Thu Nov 03, 2022 1:41 am**

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Nov 03, 2022 1:12 am
iambiguous wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 8:51 pm After all, these "my dick is bigger than your dick" macho bastards might really bring about this “Armageddon".
At this point, my only hope is that there is a God and that God does something in the 11th hour to stop the insanity of our leaders. Otherwise, grab the picket signs "Just say no to Armageddon" and start chanting on the White House lawn, EVERYBODY. Twitter and other media are failing "we the people". We all see what is going on here. Most of the key people who can actually do something to stop this seem to have their heads so far up their assesses that if we're lucky they'll choke to death.

On the other hand...

https://youtu.be/5y2FuDY6Q4M

Oh my name it ain't nothin'
My age it means less
The country I come from
Is called the Midwest
I was taught and brought up there
The laws to abide
And that land that I live in
Has God on its side

Oh, the history books tell it
They tell it so well
The cavalries charged
The Indians fell
The cavalries charged
The Indians died
Oh, the country was young
With God on its side

The Spanish-American
War had its day
And the Civil War, too
Was soon laid away
And the names of the heroes
I was made to memorize
With guns in their hands
And God on their side

The First World War, boys
It came and it went
The reason for fighting
I never did get
But I learned to accept it
Accept it with pride
For you don't count the dead
When God's on your side

The Second World War
Came to an end
We forgave the Germans
And then we were friends
Though they murdered six million
In the ovens they fried
The Germans now, too
Have God on their side

I've learned to hate the Russians
All through my whole life
If another war comes
It's them we must fight
To hate them and fear them
To run and to hide
And accept it all bravely
With God on my side

But now we got weapons
Of chemical dust
If fire them, we're forced to
Then fire, them we must
One push of the button
And a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions
When God's on your side

Through many a dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ was
Betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.

So now as I'm leavin'
I'm weary as Hell
The confusion I'm feelin'
Ain't no tongue can tell
The words fill my head
And fall to the floor
That if God's on our side
He'll stop the next war

Though, sure, maybe this time...

Posted: **Thu Nov 03, 2022 11:41 pm**

WHAT THE FUCK IS HAPPENING..

THe best answer I've heard in a long time..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmOePNsNFw0

Posted: **Fri Nov 04, 2022 5:23 am**

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uHGlfeCBbE

Good find. This is another good video. My favorite, Noam Chomsky.

Posted: **Fri Nov 04, 2022 7:26 am**

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 6:15 am When I talk about Justice, I mean that physically invading a neighboring country that hasn't invaded you even as a preemptory precaution is no better than Isreal invading Lebanon or Gaza. Or the US invading Iraq. Yes, the US is supplying weapons to Ukraine and won't negotiate, it's wrong not to seek a peaceful resolution. But to say that Russia is "justified" in invading Ukraine seems to defy any sensible version of just war theory to me. Two wrongs don't make a right. That's not international cooperation, that's chaos. I don't see how anyone can favor Russia or anyone in this. The point is to take an internationalist stance, not to dip into local nationalist ones. The fact that we're even hostile toward Russia, China, N. Korea, and Iran to begin with is all wrong. With a stance like that, it's no wonder we have so much tension in the world. The powers that be have got it all wrong. Where are the peacemakers these days?

It seems to me you're arguing two contradictory viewpoints.

When you call for negotiation, I agree with you. And so would Mearsheimer.

Then you say, "But to say that Russia is "justified" in invading Ukraine seems to defy any sensible version of just war theory to me."

That seems to be coming from the point of view that Russia is wrong, so how can you negotiate? You can only crush them, or back them into a corner where they do something truly awful.

If you want to negotiate, you have to say, "I think my opponent is wrong and evil; BUT from THEIR point of view, they think they have a case to make. I have to see things from their point of view in order to start a negotiation."

So even if you think Russia is evil incarnate and that Putin = Hitler, in order to negotiate, you have to see things from their point of view. From their point of view, the US promised in 1991 after the fall of the Soviet Union that the west would NOT push NATO eastward. And since then NATO has done nothing but push eastward, breaking their word. In 2014 the US overthrew the legitimately elected pro-Russian government of Ukraine (you remember Victoria "Fuck the EU" Nuland, who is still running Biden's Ukraine policy), and Kiev has spent the last eight years shelling the Russian-speaking Donbas region, killing some 15,000 people. It is an existential threat to the Russians to have Ukraine in NATO. The Russians simply can not allow it, any more than the US could allow Soviet nukes in Cuba.

Now, one may reject every point of that thesis. But if you advocate negotiation, you have to take the Russian viewpoint as the starting point. You have to say, yes, that is the Russian point of view. How do I negotiate peace? The only way to do that is to guarantee their security. To make them see that their viewpoint is understood and respected.

So that's why I think you are talking at cross purposes with yourself. You say the Russians are bad and wrong. Yet you want negotiations. To negotiate you have to start by seeing things from your opponent's viewpoint, and you have to make sure they see that they are getting something they need.

And what the Russians need, is to be secure from the predations of NATO. After all, it was only 80 years ago that Germany invaded Russia with five million men and killed 28 million or so Russians before finally being driven back. And before that, it was Napoleon's France invading Russia. So when it comes to Russian concern about European aggression, you can see that their fears are historically justified.

Posted: **Fri Nov 04, 2022 11:09 am**

wtf wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 7:26 am
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 6:15 am When I talk about Justice, I mean that physically invading a neighboring country that hasn't invaded you even as a preemptory precaution is no better than Isreal invading Lebanon or Gaza. Or the US invading Iraq. Yes, the US is supplying weapons to Ukraine and won't negotiate, it's wrong not to seek a peaceful resolution. But to say that Russia is "justified" in invading Ukraine seems to defy any sensible version of just war theory to me. Two wrongs don't make a right. That's not international cooperation, that's chaos. I don't see how anyone can favor Russia or anyone in this. The point is to take an internationalist stance, not to dip into local nationalist ones. The fact that we're even hostile toward Russia, China, N. Korea, and Iran to begin with is all wrong. With a stance like that, it's no wonder we have so much tension in the world. The powers that be have got it all wrong. Where are the peacemakers these days?
It seems to me you're arguing two contradictory viewpoints.

When you call for negotiation, I agree with you. And so would Mearsheimer.

Then you say, "But to say that Russia is "justified" in invading Ukraine seems to defy any sensible version of just war theory to me."

That seems to be coming from the point of view that Russia is wrong, so how can you negotiate? You can only crush them, or back them into a corner where they do something truly awful.

If you want to negotiate, you have to say, "I think my opponent is wrong and evil; BUT from THEIR point of view, they think they have a case to make. I have to see things from their point of view in order to start a negotiation."

So even if you think Russia is evil incarnate and that Putin = Hitler, in order to negotiate, you have to see things from their point of view. From their point of view, the US promised in 1991 after the fall of the Soviet Union that the west would NOT push NATO eastward. And since then NATO has done nothing but push eastward, breaking their word. In 2014 the US overthrew the legitimately elected pro-Russian government of Ukraine (you remember Victoria "Fuck the EU" Nuland, who is still running Biden's Ukraine policy), and Kiev has spent the last eight years shelling the Russian-speaking Donbas region, killing some 15,000 people. It is an existential threat to the Russians to have Ukraine in NATO. The Russians simply can not allow it, any more than the US could allow Soviet nukes in Cuba.

Now, one may reject every point of that thesis. But if you advocate negotiation, you have to take the Russian viewpoint as the starting point. You have to say, yes, that is the Russian point of view. How do I negotiate peace? The only way to do that is to guarantee their security. To make them see that their viewpoint is understood and respected.

So that's why I think you are talking at cross purposes with yourself. You say the Russians are bad and wrong. Yet you want negotiations. To negotiate you have to start by seeing things from your opponent's viewpoint, and you have to make sure they see that they are getting something they need.

And what the Russians need, is to be secure from the predations of NATO. After all, it was only 80 years ago that Germany invaded Russia with five million men and killed 28 million or so Russians before finally being driven back. And before that, it was Napoleon's France invading Russia. So when it comes to Russian concern about European aggression, you can see that their fears are historically justified.

I see your point. However, my thought is to approach negotiations from a human standpoint of something like, "Hey, Vlad. I know you think it's OK to invade Ukraine but look what we did in Iraq. It was wrong what we did in Iraq and you're making the same mistake we did. What can we do to end this." And then make some kind of agreement that Ukraine will remain a non-NATO country or whatever can be worked out. Acknowledging that we're no better than you but this needs to be resolved peacefully would be my approach. It would at least show that we're human because we can realize we are no better than they are, that we've done wrong too. Two wrongs don't make something right but we're not holier than thou, because we've done the same thing. The US needs to clean up our act too. Maybe pay reparations to Iraq as a show of good faith. Our problem is that we pretend we're better than them, we're not. But we can all see that it's wrong to do what we and Russia have done. The US leaders can step down off their high horses and become human.

Posted: **Fri Nov 11, 2022 9:21 pm**

'Ukrainian Troops Sweep Into Key City of Kherson' New York Times headline

Time to start holding our collective breaths?

How much more humiliation of this sort will Putin and the hardliners in Moscow take before they are either driven to the bargaining table or to weapons of mass destruction?

Posted: **Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:21 pm**

You root for Ukraine as America's puppet if you are ok with a world totally ruled by America, that is the agenda!

Posted: **Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:41 pm**

i cried when i saw the Ukrainian people on TV singing the anthem after they liberated whatsitcalled.

in my heart I am happy for this wonderful Ukrainian peoples.

Posted: **Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:44 am**

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:21 pm You root for Ukraine as America's puppet if you are ok with a world totally ruled by America, that is the agenda!

Like it or not, the world is in better hands with the US than with Putin. Putin is much more autocratic and totalitarian. Not a good thing for the world at this point. The US pulled out of Afghanistan and Iraq. Putin can do the same with Ukraine and save a lot of people some misery. If Putin conquers Ukraine it basically sends the signal that there is such a thing as gainful aggression.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Posted: **Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:01 pm**

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 5:23 am https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uHGlfeCBbE

Good find. This is another good video. My favorite, Noam Chomsky.

Thanks very much for the video. Chomsky is modest about the extent of what we can know about Putin the man, and this in itself impresses that Chomsky is a reliable witness to the truth.

Considering America is home to the greatest learning in the world it's a great pity that America is collapsing from within.
Chomsky's discussion of the difference between propaganda and lies I find a little hard to understand immediately and I have to concentrate.

Posted: **Fri Nov 18, 2022 5:00 am**

Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:44 am
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:21 pm You root for Ukraine as America's puppet if you are ok with a world totally ruled by America, that is the agenda!
Like it or not, the world is in better hands with the US than with Putin. Putin is much more autocratic and totalitarian. Not a good thing for the world at this point. The US pulled out of Afghanistan and Iraq. Putin can do the same with Ukraine and save a lot of people some misery. If Putin conquers Ukraine it basically sends the signal that there is such a thing as gainful aggression.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

At least half the world disagrees with you. and are not a big fan of the American empire, which in the past has not been a kind master.

Posted: **Sat Nov 19, 2022 2:57 pm**

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 18, 2022 5:00 am
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:44 am
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:21 pm You root for Ukraine as America's puppet if you are ok with a world totally ruled by America, that is the agenda!
Like it or not, the world is in better hands with the US than with Putin. Putin is much more autocratic and totalitarian. Not a good thing for the world at this point. The US pulled out of Afghanistan and Iraq. Putin can do the same with Ukraine and save a lot of people some misery. If Putin conquers Ukraine it basically sends the signal that there is such a thing as gainful aggression.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
At least half the world disagrees with you. and are not a big fan of the American empire, which in the past has not been a kind master.

The few Americans I have known would disapprove of the US sponsoring Israel in its aggression against Palestinians.One wonders if the reason for the sponsorship is numbers of influential Jews in the US. Do US Jews largely feel themselves to be Zionists?

Philosophy Now Forum

Ukraine Crisis

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Re: Ukraine Crisis

Re: Ukraine Crisis