"Atheists Killed >140 millions" is Fallacious

[Peter Kropotkin]

The act was evil since God prohibited it, at least with Christian belief.

Why does God prohibit it?

How knows? IC would say whatever God says is objective!

What are the actual consequences of eating the fruit? Aside from pissing off God.

According to the name, they could know the knowledge of good and evil. According to the Serpent, they look like God.

What is "knowledge of good and evil"?

I think what the name says.

Many interpretations are possible.

True. Some Christians believe that that was God's plan and God did it for the greater good.

K: and this is part of my objection with the idea of ''god''...

if god is unknowable, then we are left with reading the tea leaves for
what god may have meant... did god mean this or did god mean this?
all we are left with is interpretations... on interpretations...
and what is built on these various interpretations?
the various churches... Catholics and Protestants and
the Morman church is built on the many possible interpretations..

god wants this... and another church is built... god wants that..
and another church is built...but god demands this.. and another church...
and what is this all built on? just more interpretations... on
interpretations... if god is inscrutable, then we have no idea
what he wants... we can then end the interpretations game....

what really happens is that we read the tea leaves with our own
beliefs and values... it has nothing to do with god and everything to do
with how we view the world and what is needed....this question,
one of the primary questions of religions is this, how are we to be saved?
this thought lies at the heart of all religions...but here is a radical thought,
we in fact, don't need to be saved...we are not born guilty by being human...
as both the Catholics and the Buddhist believe..

and sins...are not sins.. not signs that we face some penalty from god...
sins are just actions that are, wait for it, interpretations, that we
did ''something bad''... we might have loved the ''wrong'' person or
or held that man, human beings are really the highest form of life,
not god, but human beings...sins.... but the fact is we are in ''sin''
only because of an interpretation... nothing more.... in fact,
I would go as far as to say that belief in god is really another form
of nihilism...for belief in god, denies, devalues human beings
and their values...to be honest, there is no such thing as sin...
just human actions... and those human actions are really just
an educational tool.. something to learn from, nothing more...
a ''what not to do'' type of education....sin only exists because
we allow it to exists... and sin only exists because we value it,
end faith in sin and sin goes away, just like end belief in god
and god goes away....

Kropotkin

[phyllo]

phyllo wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 1:52 pm
What is "knowledge of good and evil"?

I think what the name says.

Given the large scope of meaning for the words 'knowledge', 'good' and 'evil', "knowledge of good and evil" could mean a whole lot of things.

[seeds]

I don't understand why you cannot see the obvious. Think of a situation in which there was not a tree of good and evil. They were still free to choose but only good was available to them. That is the definition of a good situation. But God has its plan knowing that they fail. He created the tree, gave Adam and Eve access to it on top of that allowed the Serpent to fool Eve...

If God has knowledge of the future, then placing the tree there is extremely stupid of God.

Unless God intended them to eat from the tree, as some interpret the story.

If God is intended them to eat from the tree then His intention was evil.

Why is everyone so focused on the Eden myth when you could be debating the details of why the Japanese deity - Izanagi - who married and knocked-up his younger sister - Izanami - who then (according to wiki) gave birth to the many islands of Japan (kuniumi), and begat numerous deities of Shintoism (kamiumi)?

Unfortunately (again, according to wiki), she died after giving birth to the fire-god Kagu-tsuchi...

...(More like Kagu-Ouchi, right? I mean, the midwife, or whoever helped deliver that baby, must have needed a fire extinguisher when that one popped-out. ).

Anyway, the story goes on to say that...

"...Izanagi executed the fire god with the "ten-grasp sword" (Totsuka-no-tsurugi). Afterwards, he paid his wife [sister] a visit in Yomi-no-kuni (the Underworld) in the hopes of retrieving her. But she had partaken of food cooked in the furnace of the Underworld, rendering her return impossible..."

Aren't any of you the least bit curious as to why partaking of the food cooked in the furnace of the Underworld rendered Izanami's return impossible?

Come on now folks, isn't that Shinto creation myth (that never actually happened) more interesting and intriguing than the Abrahamic creation myth about a couple of boneheads in a garden (that, likewise, never actually happened)?

You guys need to stop debating the silly narratives of ancient myths as if you were discussing reality.
_______

[bahman]

Why does God prohibit it?

How knows? IC would say whatever God says is objective!

What are the actual consequences of eating the fruit? Aside from pissing off God.

According to the name, they could know the knowledge of good and evil. According to the Serpent, they look like God.

What is "knowledge of good and evil"?

I think what the name says.

Many interpretations are possible.

True. Some Christians believe that that was God's plan and God did it for the greater good.

K: and this is part of my objection with the idea of ''god''...

if god is unknowable, then we are left with reading the tea leaves for
what god may have meant... did god mean this or did god mean this?
all we are left with is interpretations... on interpretations...
and what is built on these various interpretations?
the various churches... Catholics and Protestants and
the Morman church is built on the many possible interpretations..

god wants this... and another church is built... god wants that..
and another church is built...but god demands this.. and another church...
and what is this all built on? just more interpretations... on
interpretations... if god is inscrutable, then we have no idea
what he wants... we can then end the interpretations game....

I agree. The very fact that there are many churches indicates that there is no common truth that people can strive on.

what really happens is that we read the tea leaves with our own
beliefs and values... it has nothing to do with god and everything to do
with how we view the world and what is needed....this question,
one of the primary questions of religions is this, how are we to be saved?
this thought lies at the heart of all religions...but here is a radical thought,
we in fact, don't need to be saved...we are not born guilty by being human...
as both the Catholics and the Buddhist believe..

True. The fear of being born on this planet or ending up in eternal Hell is the main derive for people to follow religions.

and sins...are not sins.. not signs that we face some penalty from god...
sins are just actions that are, wait for it, interpretations, that we
did ''something bad''... we might have loved the ''wrong'' person or
or held that man, human beings are really the highest form of life,
not god, but human beings...sins.... but the fact is we are in ''sin''
only because of an interpretation... nothing more.... in fact,
I would go as far as to say that belief in god is really another form
of nihilism...for belief in god, denies, devalues human beings
and their values...to be honest, there is no such thing as sin...
just human actions... and those human actions are really just
an educational tool.. something to learn from, nothing more...
a ''what not to do'' type of education....sin only exists because
we allow it to exists... and sin only exists because we value it,
end faith in sin and sin goes away, just like end belief in god
and god goes away....

Kropotkin

I agree. The sin is simply something that we do. It is a mistake. But we can learn from out mistakes and grow up.

[bahman]

phyllo wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 1:52 pm
What is "knowledge of good and evil"?

I think what the name says.

Given the large scope of meaning for the words 'knowledge', 'good' and 'evil', "knowledge of good and evil" could mean a whole lot of things.

Other verses say that the fruit gives wisdom.

[bahman]

If God has knowledge of the future, then placing the tree there is extremely stupid of God.

Unless God intended them to eat from the tree, as some interpret the story.

If God is intended them to eat from the tree then His intention was evil.

Why is everyone so focused on the Eden myth when you could be debating the details of why the Japanese deity - Izanagi - who married and knocked-up his younger sister - Izanami - who then (according to wiki) gave birth to the many islands of Japan (kuniumi), and begat numerous deities of Shintoism (kamiumi)?

Unfortunately (again, according to wiki), she died after giving birth to the fire-god Kagu-tsuchi...

...(More like Kagu-Ouchi, right? I mean, the midwife, or whoever helped deliver that baby, must have needed a fire extinguisher when that one popped-out. ).

Anyway, the story goes on to say that...

"...Izanagi executed the fire god with the "ten-grasp sword" (Totsuka-no-tsurugi). Afterwards, he paid his wife [sister] a visit in Yomi-no-kuni (the Underworld) in the hopes of retrieving her. But she had partaken of food cooked in the furnace of the Underworld, rendering her return impossible..."

Aren't any of you the least bit curious as to why partaking of the food cooked in the furnace of the Underworld rendered Izanami's return impossible?

Come on now folks, isn't that Shinto creation myth (that never actually happened) more interesting and intriguing than the Abrahamic creation myth about a couple of boneheads in a garden (that, likewise, never actually happened)?

You guys need to stop debating the silly narratives of ancient myths as if you were discussing reality.
_______

Interesting to know another myth. To understand what is the truth one needs to get rid of all myths. That is what I am trying to do.

[phyllo]

To understand what is the truth one needs to get rid of all myths. That is what I am trying to do.

One doesn't need to get rid of myths. One only needs to be able to tell the difference between myth and reality.

[Peter Kropotkin]

To understand what is the truth one needs to get rid of all myths. That is what I am trying to do.

One doesn't need to get rid of myths. One only needs to be able to tell the difference between myth and reality.

K: and I hold that those who believe in myths, that there is a god,
are not engaged in reality.. they can't tell the difference....
and that is a major problem in the world today.... and those who
hold to myths are forcing everyone to believe in their myths,
not in reality.... in which there is not a metaphysical
myth beyond or outside of our senses... I.E. god....or heaven
or hell or Satan... although I believe in hell because I
have been to Fresno California in the summertime... ouch..

Kropotkin

[promethean75]

well ladies and gentlemen, there ain't no hell... there is no such thing as hell... there is no hell. There is only.....France!

[bahman]

To understand what is the truth one needs to get rid of all myths. That is what I am trying to do.

One doesn't need to get rid of myths. One only needs to be able to tell the difference between myth and reality.

What is the use of myth when we know the truth, as reality is?

[phyllo]

To understand what is the truth one needs to get rid of all myths. That is what I am trying to do.

One doesn't need to get rid of myths. One only needs to be able to tell the difference between myth and reality.

What is the use of myth when we know the truth, as reality is?

Myths are entertaining.

Myths demonstrate themes that are important.

Myths transcend specific individuals and specific events.

Myths are part of a shared culture.

Etc ...

[bahman]

One doesn't need to get rid of myths. One only needs to be able to tell the difference between myth and reality.

What is the use of myth when we know the truth, as reality is?

Myths are entertaining.

Myths demonstrate themes that are important.

Myths transcend specific individuals and specific events.

Myths are part of a shared culture.

Etc ...

That is alright as long as people don't take myths to be true.

[nemos]

...Myths are part of a shared culture.

Etc ...

Take the words out of my mouth. I agree.

Myths and tales also express the attitudes and aspirations of the representatives of the respective culture, as well as ethics and aesthetics.
For example, in the story about the Edene garden, there is an obvious discriminatory attitude towards women. Eve was created from Adam's rib and for Adam's needs. I read that this discriminatory attitude was especially characteristic of the followers of the apostle Peter, because he had some kind of dislike for Magdalena.
While the fairy tale I mentioned about the division of people into male and female, there is no discrimination and the act of love is covered in a rather beautiful halo.

Nice communities make nice myths, and vice versa.

[Peter Kropotkin]

and what is odd, is that the official church, the Catholic church
pretty much hates women... but if we accept the bible, Jesus
himself had no problem with women.. especially if we
consider Mary Magdalene, considered to be a saint in the
Catholic religion, and Eastern orthodox, Anglican and Lutheran
denominations... so, once again, the official church, the Catholic
church, practices something that Jesus himself didn't.... hatred
of Women....another major difference between the words/actions
of Jesus and the words/action of the Catholic church...

Kropotkin

[Immanuel Can]

Yes, I am free but my brother knows that I would steal his money! Whose fault it is, me or my brother or both?

Yours, obviously. There's only one thief.

Amazingly, you cannot see the simple fact, that we both committed evil!

Your brother's only "evil" was owning a wallet. Other than that, what offence would you charge him with?