Philosophy Now Forum

phyllo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 9:34 pm I think it comes from theists who are too enthusiastic and give their god all sorts of wonderful attributes.

That actually generates awkward discussions for them.

If god is perfect, then why does he/she/it make little kids suffer horrible diseases or abuse?

But God, Itself, IS NOT MAKING so-called 'little, NOR big, kids' SUFFER horrible diseases or abuse.

1. But, THEN, I KNOW WHO and WHAT God IS, EXACTLY.

2. Children ONLY 'suffer' BECAUSE of 'you', adult human beings. And, BEFORE ANY one just REFUTES 'this' OUTRIGHT, PLEASE REMEMBER 'I' AM ABSOLUTELY OPEN TO BE CHALLENGED and/or QUESTIONED OVER 'this CLAIM'.

3. ONLY 'you', adult human beings, ABUSE children. NO one/thing ELSE does.

4. JUST MAYBE SOME of the so-called 'horrible diseases', which children are SAID TO SUFFER WITH and/or FROM, ARE A DIRECT RESULT OF adult human being Wrong DOING/S.

phyllo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 9:34 pm One has do some wild babbling to rationalize it.

Also, one HAS TO DO some so-called 'wild BELIEVING' to NOT BEING OPEN TO OTHER 'things', AND TO 'RATIONALIZE' 'their' OWN DISTORTED and Wrong BELIEFS.

phyllo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 9:34 pm God might have screwed up some stuff.

HOW do 'you' IMAGINE SO?

What PERCEPTION/S do 'you' even HAVE OF 'God', Itself?

phyllo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 9:34 pm We don't know enough to say how or why.

'you' may NOT, BUT 'we' CERTAINLY DO.

phyllo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 9:34 pm That's the real honest answer.

What WAS the so-called REAL HONEST QUESTION, here?

phyllo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 8:38 pm

Maybe the meaning of perfect and imperfect is what is at odds here.

Yes, "perfect" is one of those words that could mean something or it could mean nothing.

A "perfect god" ... what could it mean?

The more one thinks about it, the nuttier it becomes.

God must be perfect, or else he is not God.

Children suffer.

God cannot be perfect.


God cannot be.

commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 10:44 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 8:38 pm

Maybe the meaning of perfect and imperfect is what is at odds here.

Yes, "perfect" is one of those words that could mean something or it could mean nothing.

A "perfect god" ... what could it mean?

The more one thinks about it, the nuttier it becomes.

God must be perfect, or else he is not God.

Children suffer.

God cannot be perfect.


God cannot be.

I'm not sure what you are saying.

Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 9:18 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 8:38 pm

Maybe the meaning of perfect and imperfect is what is at odds here.

Yes, "perfect" is one of those words that could mean something or it could mean nothing.

A "perfect god" ... what could it mean?

The more one thinks about it, the nuttier it becomes.

Putting aside that "perfect" seems to mean some hypothetical state that is unachievable in reality, don't we just mean something that is ideal for the purpose it serves, or as near as damn it to the ultimate standard that we can imagine?

ABSOLUTELY ANY 'thing' MEANS ABSOLUTELY WHATEVER 'the observer' WANTS 'it' TO MEAN.

Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 9:18 pm When the term is applied to God, I guess it's just a way of avoiding having to answer awkward questions.

PUT FORWARD ABSOLUTELY ANY so-called 'AWKWARD QUESTION'. 'I', for one, WILL CERTAINLY NEVER AVOID ANSWERING 'them'.

Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 9:18 pm We might not understand it, but if God did it, it must be because he had a perfect reason for doing it, because he is the perfect being. It's the ultimate get out of jail free card.

AND WHEN, and IF, 'you' COME-TO-REALIZE, and KNOW, WHO and WHAT God IS, EXACTLY, ALSO, then:

1. 'you' WILL get OUT OF the bad or wrong HABIT OF, and STOP, calling 'It' A "he".

2. 'you' WILL SEE and UNDERSTAND HOW and WHY God, Itself, IS CALLED 'PERFECT'.

commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 10:44 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 8:38 pm

Maybe the meaning of perfect and imperfect is what is at odds here.

Yes, "perfect" is one of those words that could mean something or it could mean nothing.

A "perfect god" ... what could it mean?

The more one thinks about it, the nuttier it becomes.

God must be perfect, or else he is not God.

Children suffer.

Children ONLY so-call 'suffer' BECAUSE OF 'you', adult human beings.

commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 10:44 pm God cannot be perfect.


God cannot be.

Also, WHY DO 'you', VERY Wrongly, call God, Itself, A "he"?

phyllo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 10:48 pm

commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 10:44 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 8:38 pm
Yes, "perfect" is one of those words that could mean something or it could mean nothing.

A "perfect god" ... what could it mean?

The more one thinks about it, the nuttier it becomes.

God must be perfect, or else he is not God.

Children suffer.

God cannot be perfect.


God cannot be.

I'm not sure what you are saying.

'The one' known as "commonsense" here is 'TRYING TO' formulate 'an argument' FOR what 'it', currently, BELIEVES IS TRUE.

Children ONLY so-call 'suffer' BECAUSE OF 'you', adult human beings.

How so?

phyllo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 10:48 pm

commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 10:44 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 8:38 pm
Yes, "perfect" is one of those words that could mean something or it could mean nothing.

A "perfect god" ... what could it mean?

The more one thinks about it, the nuttier it becomes.

God must be perfect, or else he is not God.

Children suffer.

God cannot be perfect.


God cannot be.

I'm not sure what you are saying.

If God must be perfect, and not merely supernatural, there can be no God.

Age wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 10:48 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 9:18 pm
We might not understand it, but if God did it, it must be because he had a perfect reason for doing it, because he is the perfect being. It's the ultimate get out of jail free card.

AND WHEN, and IF, 'you' COME-TO-REALIZE, and KNOW, WHO and WHAT God IS, EXACTLY, ALSO, then:

1. 'you' WILL get OUT OF the bad or wrong HABIT OF, and STOP, calling 'It' A "he".

2. 'you' WILL SEE and UNDERSTAND HOW and WHY God, Itself, IS CALLED 'PERFECT'.

I am actually sick to death of the word, "God", so I don't even know why I came on this thread and mentioned him/her/it.

And I'll call him/her/it whatever I like, thank you very much.

Harbal wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 12:29 am

Age wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 10:48 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 9:18 pm
We might not understand it, but if God did it, it must be because he had a perfect reason for doing it, because he is the perfect being. It's the ultimate get out of jail free card.

AND WHEN, and IF, 'you' COME-TO-REALIZE, and KNOW, WHO and WHAT God IS, EXACTLY, ALSO, then:

1. 'you' WILL get OUT OF the bad or wrong HABIT OF, and STOP, calling 'It' A "he".

2. 'you' WILL SEE and UNDERSTAND HOW and WHY God, Itself, IS CALLED 'PERFECT'.

I am actually sick to death of the word, "God", so I don't even know why I came on this thread and mentioned him/her/it.

Harbal wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 12:29 am And I'll call him/her/it whatever I like, thank you very much.

Okay, and OF COURSE 'you' WILL.

'you' WILL ALSO CALL "yourself" whatever 'you' like, AS WELL.

If God must be perfect, and not merely supernatural, there can be no God.

I'm just pointing out that there are people who think that 'a god doesn't have to be perfect to be a god'.

Bahman's position is not that extreme or unusual. It's not like nobody agrees with him about it.

phyllo wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 2:57 pm

If God must be perfect, and not merely supernatural, there can be no God.

I'm just pointing out that there are people who think that 'a god doesn't have to be perfect to be a god'.

Bahman's position is not that extreme or unusual. It's not like nobody agrees with him about it.

Who AGREES WITH "bahman's" position?

And, what do 'you' think or BELIEVE IS "bahman's" position here?

commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 10:53 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 10:48 pm

commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 10:44 pm God must be perfect, or else he is not God.

Children suffer.

God cannot be perfect.


God cannot be.

I'm not sure what you are saying.

If God must be perfect, and not merely supernatural, there can be no God.

If some 'thing' is SUPPOSEDLY so-called 'supernatural', when the 'supernatural' word is REFERRING TO some 'thing' that is outside of, above, beyond, or NOT a part of 'Nature' nor the 'Natural', then 'that thing' OBVIOUSLY can NOT exist', and therefore does NOT exist.

However, if some 'thing' IS so-called 'perfect', then 'this thing' could exist, and, in fact, ACTUALLY DOES EXIST.

But, OBVIOUSLY, NOT ALL people, in the days when this was being written BELIEVED 'this', NOR ACCEPTED 'this'. AGAIN, BECAUSE of 'their' PRE-EXISTING BELIEFS, and PRESUMPTIONS.

Age wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 11:27 pm

commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 10:53 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 10:48 pm
I'm not sure what you are saying.

If God must be perfect, and not merely supernatural, there can be no God.

If some 'thing' is SUPPOSEDLY so-called 'supernatural', when the 'supernatural' word is REFERRING TO some 'thing' that is outside of, above, beyond, or NOT a part of 'Nature' nor the 'Natural', then 'that thing' OBVIOUSLY can NOT exist', and therefore does NOT exist.

However, if some 'thing' IS so-called 'perfect', then 'this thing' could exist, and, in fact, ACTUALLY DOES EXIST.

But, OBVIOUSLY, NOT ALL people, in the days when this was being written BELIEVED 'this', NOR ACCEPTED 'this'. AGAIN, BECAUSE of 'their' PRE-EXISTING BELIEFS, and PRESUMPTIONS.

There cannot be a perfect God, because if God were perfect, children would not suffer. Humans would live in Utopia.

But children do suffer, and humans do not live in Utopia.

Therefore, IF God exists, God is not perfect.

Furthermore, if God is not perfect, he is not omnipotent, but rather only nearly omnipotent,

In the Torah it is written that God commands his followers to worship him on every Sabbath. But if God were imperfect, he might rather suggest that his followers worship him on three out of four Sabbaths, thus diluting his commandments.

This weakened God would barely be worthy of being called God.


So, there can be no perfect God and an imperfect God would be a weakened, vulnerable God.

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Dec 24, 2023 8:03 pm

Age wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 11:27 pm

commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 10:53 pm

If God must be perfect, and not merely supernatural, there can be no God.

If some 'thing' is SUPPOSEDLY so-called 'supernatural', when the 'supernatural' word is REFERRING TO some 'thing' that is outside of, above, beyond, or NOT a part of 'Nature' nor the 'Natural', then 'that thing' OBVIOUSLY can NOT exist', and therefore does NOT exist.

However, if some 'thing' IS so-called 'perfect', then 'this thing' could exist, and, in fact, ACTUALLY DOES EXIST.

But, OBVIOUSLY, NOT ALL people, in the days when this was being written BELIEVED 'this', NOR ACCEPTED 'this'. AGAIN, BECAUSE of 'their' PRE-EXISTING BELIEFS, and PRESUMPTIONS.

There cannot be a perfect God, because if God were perfect, children would not suffer. Humans would live in Utopia.

But children do suffer, and humans do not live in Utopia.

Why does a perfect God have to create perfectly? It is up to him. Isn't it? Moreover, the perfect creation is God and nothing else.

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Dec 24, 2023 8:03 pm Therefore, IF God exists, God is not perfect.

Maybe.

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Dec 24, 2023 8:03 pm Furthermore, if God is not perfect, he is not omnipotent, but rather only nearly omnipotent,

True.

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Dec 24, 2023 8:03 pm In the Torah it is written that God commands his followers to worship him on every Sabbath. But if God were imperfect, he might rather suggest that his followers worship him on three out of four Sabbaths, thus diluting his commandments.

This weakened God would barely be worthy of being called God.

OK. So?

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Dec 24, 2023 8:03 pm So, there can be no perfect God and an imperfect God would be a weakened, vulnerable God.

Yes. But that does not mean that an imperfect God cannot exist.