For the discussion of all things philosophical.
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Can you explain more so that everyone understands? What are you referring to?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 10:55 pmJust a comment. I think you'll probably only have to wait a little while to find out if that's true or not.Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 8:35 pm It cannot turn out well. That is one of the primary take-aways.
Any questions Immanuel?
Well there we have it, don't we? We all know what you think of God, so your position on Israel is totally predictable. Does it never trouble you how many people have died because of what it says in what I recently heard described as "the Goat Herders Guide to the Universe"?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 10:53 pmWhoops. First mistake. It was as much the Jews' land as anybody's...arguably more, depending on what one thinks of God.Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 8:09 pmI am not well enough informed to debate it with you, but I am well enough informed to know that modern Israel is founded on land that was stolen.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:28 pm
No spin. Just a little history, all publicly available. Google it yourself, if you doubt.
Just wait. You'll see.Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 11:09 pmCan you explain more so that everyone understands? What are you referring to?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 10:55 pmJust a comment. I think you'll probably only have to wait a little while to find out if that's true or not.Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 8:35 pm It cannot turn out well. That is one of the primary take-aways.
Any questions Immanuel?
Indeed, we do. We may not all like it, but that's how it is. The Hebrews lived on that land over three millennia ago. If you know somebody who has a prior right, we could see about them, too.Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 11:32 pmWell there we have it, don't we?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 10:53 pmWhoops. First mistake. It was as much the Jews' land as anybody's...arguably more, depending on what one thinks of God.
Do you own your own property? If you do, how would you feel about someone kicking you out of it because he could prove his ancestors lived on that land three thousand years ago?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 11:38 pmIndeed, we do. We may not all like it, but that's how it is. The Hebrews lived on that land over three millennia ago. If you know somebody who has a prior right, we could see about them, too.Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 11:32 pmWell there we have it, don't we?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 10:53 pm
Whoops. First mistake. It was as much the Jews' land as anybody's...arguably more, depending on what one thinks of God.
I imagine I'd be just as annoyed as the Jews were for being scattered across the world.
Not since you started talking.
I've know a good number of people on various forums who actually believe this superstitious twaddle.Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2023 1:47 am
There is talk of the reconstruction of the temple and the offering again of sacrifices by a reconstituted priesthood.
Many Christians, likely Immanuel himself (a somewhat closeted Christian Zionist), believe that Jesus will return when this happens and the foretold End of the World will begin.
Thank you.Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 10:18 pmThis is another, and really quite strange, aspect about Judaism. Technically, Judaism depends on one's genetics. You could (technically) be a Jew but practice Shinto or Buddhism -- or completely deny every belief of Judaism. You are born of a Jewish mother (Reform Judaism is less strict: either parent can be Jewish) and thus are Jewish. If your mother is not Jewish you are not, technically, a Jew -- though you could believe every tenet and practice them all. You'd be required to go through a conversion.
So historically "marrying out" and not marrying "in" were profoundly frowned upon. In fact to marry out often resulted in general exile from one's former community. But these strict rules were maintained mostly, or most fiercely, in observant religious communities.
When the general Emancipation took place the idea was, in a sense, to assimilate Jews into the general populations where they resided. Judaism was perceived, wrongly in fact, as a religion and that one could choose the religion and thus become a Jew. Or decide to be something else. But it is much more complex. The Orthodox conversion process is difficult, demanding, and takes a long time. It can be done though. The Orthodox because of their fixation on genetics mirror in a weird way how the National Socialists defined who is, and who is not, a Jew.
However, here is the problem. When a Jew assimilates he ceases to be a Jew. Or he begins the process. When he exists the matrix of the community, and the community had always been a tightly woven religious and cultural one, his children are not raised in the tradition. Judaism has always functioned through separation. Assimilation is thus the bane of Judaism. People do though remain culturally Jewish for a generation or two but eventually they are lost in assimilation. They might say "My grandmother was Jewish" but it has little meaning.
Assimilation is greatly feared by practicing, Orthodox communities. It is possible that an "assimilated" Jew could choose to reenter the fold, and this does happen. But that means taking up the halachic regulations and involves, once again, separation and isolation.
"Being a Jew" is really a strange type of identification.
Judaism, and Jewishness, depend (and this is sort of amazing) on historical memory. The more strongly is your identification, the more strongly do you remain aware of the trails and tribulations of Jewish history. You know exactly where you are and how you got there.
And that is why is was possible, after centuries and millennia, to then return to Judea. And the memory led, naturally, to a reenactment of the original history of the original conquest.
Set me straight please, so that everyone who reads here gets the story right.
I would, if you could be "set straight." I can see you don't want to be, and will not allow yourself to be. You've let your ego get in the way, and you're now just bucking the truth.Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2023 12:03 pmSet me straight please, so that everyone who reads here gets the story right.
What is the point of warning somebody but not telling them what the warning is about?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2023 2:49 pm
But I have said enough to you, and the warning has been sent. That's what's called in Scripture the "watchman's" duty -- my obligation is to tell you, not to force you to believe anything. And I can see you know enough, and at present, refuse it.
Well, okay. My obligation's to you is fulfilled. What you do with it, that's on you.
Also interesting is he considers you wicked and himself dwelling in the house of Israel.Harbal wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2023 3:09 pmWhat is the point of warning somebody but not telling them what the warning is about?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2023 2:49 pm
But I have said enough to you, and the warning has been sent. That's what's called in Scripture the "watchman's" duty -- my obligation is to tell you, not to force you to believe anything. And I can see you know enough, and at present, refuse it.
Well, okay. My obligation's to you is fulfilled. What you do with it, that's on you.
I'm sure IC will say the OT is part of the Christian Bible and also it's the same God, or something similar, but we are dealing with a message given to a Jewish person, in the context of the relationship between Jews and God, in the OT.Ezekiel 33
The Watchman’s Duty
1And the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 2“Son of man, speak to the sons of your people and say to them, ‘If I bring a sword upon a land, and the people of the land take one man from among them and make him their watchman, 3and he sees the sword coming upon the land and blows on the trumpet and warns the people, 4then he who hears the sound of the trumpet and does not take warning, and a sword comes and takes him away, his blood will be on his own head. 5He heard the sound of the trumpet but did not take warning; his blood will be on himself. But had he taken warning, he would have delivered his life. 6But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require from the watchman’s hand.’
7“Now as for you, son of man, I have appointed you a watchman for the house of Israel; so you will hear a message from My mouth and give them warning from Me. 8When I say to the wicked, ‘O wicked man, you will surely die,’ and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require from your hand. 9But if you on your part warn a wicked man to turn from his way and he does not turn from his way, he will die in his iniquity, but you have delivered your life.
Excellent!Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2023 2:49 pm I would, if you could be "set straight." I can see you don't want to be, and will not allow yourself to be. You've let your ego get in the way, and you're now just bucking the truth.
But I have said enough to you, and the warning has been sent. That's what's called in Scripture the "watchman's" duty -- my obligation is to tell you, not to force you to believe anything. And I can see you know enough, and at present, refuse it.
Well, okay. My obligation's to you is fulfilled. What you do with it, that's on you.