Self-Identity

[Wizard22]

They're not abstract categories.

They're real. People are real. Birds are real. Cats are real. You're mixing up and conflating abstraction with reality.

[Skepdick]

They're not abstract categories.

They're real. People are real. Birds are real. Cats are real. You're mixing up and conflating abstraction with reality.

"Real" is an abstract category.

Then again. The phrase "abstract" is completely redundant when speaking about categories.

[Dontaskme]

Bodies and brains are real, not conceptual.

Yes concepts are real, in the sense that real is a concept known.


And that which is known, knows nothing.

[Age]

Considering you started a thread ABOUT 'literacy', and then went on here to do the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you CLAIMED,

No, I did exactly what I did claim. I showed you, using your own words, contradicting yourself, about "differences being illusory".

LOL
LOL
LOL

NO you DID NOT.

you ACTUALLY USED words that I NEVER USED, and, WORSE, you SAID that they were MY OWN WORDS. So, IRREFUTABLY, you NEVER used my own words.

'you' could NOT be MORE Wrong here and you could NOT have FAILED ANY MORE here on YOUR OWN 'literacy' CLAIMS. Part of your OWN 'literacy' thread was about having the ability to just copy or repeat "another's" words verbatim. YET you could NOT even just COPY and PAST my OWN ACTUAL WORDS here. Thus you have FAILED ABSOLUTELY here.

Then you reacted with your usual tirade, obfuscating your own clumsiness and lack of mental discipline.

If 'that' is what you SAW and BELIEVE, then so be it.

But what I DID was just POINT OUT and SHOW what you ACTUALLY DID, while I STILL WAIT for you POINT OUT and SHOW the ALLEGED and CLAIMED CONTRADICTION of mine.

LOL Even when I CLEARLY TYPED the WORDS, 'I have NEVER even suggested that 'difference' is an illusion, let alone said ANY 'thing' like that.' you STILL BELIEVE I CONTRADICTED "my" 'self' ABOUT 'differences being illusory'.

'you' REALLY can NOT READ and COMPREHEND, NOR even UNDERSTAND, a LOT of the ACTUAL WORDS that I SAY and USE here.

Also, you appear to have a COMPLETE LACK OF ABILITY to just CLARIFY what you WRITE and SAY here. For example, one, out of MANY, questions I just asked you to CLARIFY about whether a 'person' to you IS the human body or not. YET you could NOT even just do this MOST SIMPLEST of 'things'.

[bahman]

From the thread: (viewtopic.php?t=40329)

There are arguments against the cogito, but it hasn't been disproven. Proofs are for math and symbolic logic. There are some good arguments against it or saying that it is weaker than it might seem at first glance. I looked at the other thread and while both of you were confusing at times, he was a pest and calling you asking for a source for the debunking a cop out was very silly.

The first main problem with the cogito is that just because there is thinking or really cognition going on it doesn't mean there is an 'I' for example. There could just be this phenomenon. This experiencing, which either persists through some time or doesn't.

How can there not be an "I". Are you at this instant in which you are typing, not conscious? While I admit you could be an AI chatbot for all I know, I can attest to the fact that I exist at this moment, and that I am having what we conscious beings refer to as "thoughts".

I wanted to divert the Cartesian thread to a more generalized concept of 'Self' or 'I'/Identity.

You cannot have any sort of experience without the mind. A materialistic viewpoint takes you nowhere. Self is the mind. I/identity is the result of experiencing the stuff, Quadia.

How do people, as young children, begin to develop their "Sense of Self"?

There is a part of the brain that is responsible for generating a sense of self. How it is done? No-one knows.

How did/do you? What is "you" or "I"?

I am a body interacting with the mind.

For example, humans developed the literary concept of Naming one-another. You are known/identified by your name. Animals don't do this, at least, not in a literary/textual sense. Animals may make noises or communicate verbally, to call-out and identify their own kin, but their communication is crude and base level by comparison. It's not sophisticated. Human identity, however, is. So what's your take on this?

I don't think that language is relevant in the discussion about the sense of self.

[Veritas Aequitas]

There are many elements that differentiate one individual as unique from another.

One critical element is the DNA comprising >3 billions of coding pairs of A, T, G, C.
Just imagine the possible permutations.
Another, the human brain has appx. 100 billion neurons each with up to 10,000 connectors [synapes], again note the possible permutations.
Another, each individual human of the > 8 billion [past and present] has a unique set of fingerprints.

The unique permutation of the above will set individuals from each other.

However, naturally there will be general patterns [e.g. genes & nurturing factors] thus differentiating individuals in groups, e.g. race, physical appearances, Intelligences, health, psychology, inclinations, etc. etc.

Thus if you want to differentiate one individual from other or groups from another, you will have to specify the variable[s] involved.

That's sufficient for me. You chose genetics, brain chemistry/mental composition, and all other derivative factors. That's a lot more detailed than anybody else on this forum seems to offer. Once you get into genetics, you quickly earn the labels of 'racist', 'nazi', 'eugenicist', by way of having interest or knowledge alone. Thus it is dangerous to set people apart too profoundly. The masses are sold on notions of camaraderie and humanity, sameness rather than distinction.

If humans are so diverse and distinct apart from one-another, as you present, then I wonder how people share attributes and likeness, such as in thought and rationality. Can you say something about that? How do people 'intuit' meaning between each other?

Genetics = racists, nazi, eugunist??? that is primitive as in the olden days, perhaps even at present, however note;

Note the uniqueness of DNA in convicting criminals, rapists, murderers and solving cold-cases that are very old.
Also the uniqueness of DNA in tracing long lost parents, relatives, etc.
There are many other utilities from the uniqueness of DNA as unique self-identity.

All humans are programed with the primal & tribal "us versus them" to facilitate survival on a group basis.
As such there are inherent neural algorithms that seek out similar patterns [features, faces, skin color, thoughts, ideology, etc.] that one recognize as of the same feathers thus of no threat - feel good to be company with.
You will note this is so evident in the present [with refinements] as in the past.

To facilitate the progress of humanity, individual[s] must self-develop to modulate and manage this deeply embedded inherent critical-for-survival instinct toward the future.

[Wizard22]

"Real" is an abstract category.

Then again. The phrase "abstract" is completely redundant when speaking about categories.

I disagree. Reality is the Antithesis of Abstraction.

[Wizard22]

And that which is known, knows nothing.

[Wizard22]

No, I did exactly what I did claim. I showed you, using your own words, contradicting yourself, about "differences being illusory".

LOL
LOL
LOL

NO you DID NOT.

you ACTUALLY USED words that I NEVER USED, and, WORSE, you SAID that they were MY OWN WORDS. So, IRREFUTABLY, you NEVER used my own words.

'you' could NOT be MORE Wrong here and you could NOT have FAILED ANY MORE here on YOUR OWN 'literacy' CLAIMS. Part of your OWN 'literacy' thread was about having the ability to just copy or repeat "another's" words verbatim. YET you could NOT even just COPY and PAST my OWN ACTUAL WORDS here. Thus you have FAILED ABSOLUTELY here.

Yes I did, get over it.

[Wizard22]

There is a part of the brain that is responsible for generating a sense of self. How it is done? No-one knows.

We know in the sense that we experience it.

It can be simplified. You respond to people calling out your name, or in this forum, your Username. How does your brain do this?

How did/do you? What is "you" or "I"?

I am a body interacting with the mind.

For example, humans developed the literary concept of Naming one-another. You are known/identified by your name. Animals don't do this, at least, not in a literary/textual sense. Animals may make noises or communicate verbally, to call-out and identify their own kin, but their communication is crude and base level by comparison. It's not sophisticated. Human identity, however, is. So what's your take on this?

I don't think that language is relevant in the discussion about the sense of self.

I think language is critical, because it is the foremost method of communication with regard to Self-Identity.

For example, people use your name, or your Username. That's very important. You identify with your name. Why? How?

[Wizard22]

Genetics = racists, nazi, eugunist??? that is primitive as in the olden days, perhaps even at present, however note;

Note the uniqueness of DNA in convicting criminals, rapists, murderers and solving cold-cases that are very old.
Also the uniqueness of DNA in tracing long lost parents, relatives, etc.
There are many other utilities from the uniqueness of DNA as unique self-identity.

All humans are programed with the primal & tribal "us versus them" to facilitate survival on a group basis.
As such there are inherent neural algorithms that seek out similar patterns [features, faces, skin color, thoughts, ideology, etc.] that one recognize as of the same feathers thus of no threat - feel good to be company with.
You will note this is so evident in the present [with refinements] as in the past.

To facilitate the progress of humanity, individual[s] must self-develop to modulate and manage this deeply embedded inherent critical-for-survival instinct toward the future.

I agree, but when it comes to tribal identification, affiliation, cooperation...or animosity and warfare, these genetic compulsions run deep. Hence why the very topic is politically sensitive. It's (morally) "okay" for some groups to be "racist", but not others. In other words, it's (morally) "okay" for some groups to practice Eugenics, but not others. Can you remark about this?

I believe genetics is a very deep topic, that most people are scared about, because of the negative attention it draws from Neurotic Anglo-Jews like Flash. He sniffs it out. He senses it. He wants to interrupt it. Hmmm, is it a coincidence?

[Age]

No, I did exactly what I did claim. I showed you, using your own words, contradicting yourself, about "differences being illusory".

LOL
LOL
LOL

NO you DID NOT.

you ACTUALLY USED words that I NEVER USED, and, WORSE, you SAID that they were MY OWN WORDS. So, IRREFUTABLY, you NEVER used my own words.

'you' could NOT be MORE Wrong here and you could NOT have FAILED ANY MORE here on YOUR OWN 'literacy' CLAIMS. Part of your OWN 'literacy' thread was about having the ability to just copy or repeat "another's" words verbatim. YET you could NOT even just COPY and PAST my OWN ACTUAL WORDS here. Thus you have FAILED ABSOLUTELY here.

Yes I did, get over it.

YES I KNOW you USED words that were NOT mine, while CLAIMING that they were mine.

This is EXTREMELY CLEAR, and OBVIOUS, as THE ACTUAL WORDS that we have BOTH USED are CLEARLY TYPED OUT ABOVE FOR ALL TO LOOK AT, and SEE.

[Wizard22]

YES I KNOW you USED words that were NOT mine, while CLAIMING that they were mine.

This is EXTREMELY CLEAR, and OBVIOUS, as THE ACTUAL WORDS that we have BOTH USED are CLEARLY TYPED OUT ABOVE FOR ALL TO LOOK AT, and SEE.

You said differences are illusory. You were wrong. Own it, Age.

[Age]

From the thread: (viewtopic.php?t=40329)

How can there not be an "I". Are you at this instant in which you are typing, not conscious? While I admit you could be an AI chatbot for all I know, I can attest to the fact that I exist at this moment, and that I am having what we conscious beings refer to as "thoughts".

I wanted to divert the Cartesian thread to a more generalized concept of 'Self' or 'I'/Identity.

You cannot have any sort of experience without the mind. A materialistic viewpoint takes you nowhere. Self is the mind. I/identity is the result of experiencing the stuff, Quadia.

How do people, as young children, begin to develop their "Sense of Self"?

There is a part of the brain that is responsible for generating a sense of self. How it is done? No-one knows.

I ALREADY PARTLY EXPLAINED HOW young children begin to develop a 'sense of self'. So, YOUR CLAIM here IS False, Wrong, and Incorrect.

How did/do you? What is "you" or "I"?

I am a body interacting with the mind.

Just two sentences ago you SAID and WROTE, 'Self IS 'the mind', but now you SAY and WRITE, 'I/Self IS a body, interacting with 'the mind'.

Will you EXPLAIN WHY this apparent CONTRADICTION exists here?

If you ANSWER this QUESTION, then 'that' MIGHT HELP in EXPLAINING ALL of your VERY MANY CONTRADICTIONS here in this forum.

For example, humans developed the literary concept of Naming one-another. You are known/identified by your name. Animals don't do this, at least, not in a literary/textual sense. Animals may make noises or communicate verbally, to call-out and identify their own kin, but their communication is crude and base level by comparison. It's not sophisticated. Human identity, however, is. So what's your take on this?

I don't think that language is relevant in the discussion about the sense of self.

Okay. But the thinking within that body can be Wrong, right?

[Age]

YES I KNOW you USED words that were NOT mine, while CLAIMING that they were mine.

This is EXTREMELY CLEAR, and OBVIOUS, as THE ACTUAL WORDS that we have BOTH USED are CLEARLY TYPED OUT ABOVE FOR ALL TO LOOK AT, and SEE.

You said differences are illusory. You were wrong. Own it, Age.

LOL SHOW, EXACTLY, WHERE I SUPPOSEDLY SAID 'differences are illusory'.

you have ALREADY FAILED, ABSOLUTELY, to SHOW WHERE I HAVE, SUPPOSEDLY, SAID something ELSE. So, we now WAIT, FOR 'you' "wizard22" to back up and support 'this CLAIM' of YOURS here, this time.