Philosophy Now Forum

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:28 pmThe sort of citizen brought into this world in the 19th century (largely) is a creation of evolution in politics, in social models, economics, and much else. Prior to that, the bulk of people lived those short lives of desperation and pain. Modernity created new models and new possibilities.

In what sense does this make him a "mass man" in comparison with other historical epochs each being unique? There's no mention of that.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:28 pm Civil society, as we understand it, is a European category largely. Not to mean completely, but largely.

It was the ancient Western societies which created the European ones as we know them. Europe has a multiplicity of predecessors and only exists in their wake.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:28 pmOf course, jerk, I analyze what I read. It is you who seem to have a bug up your asshole and it is getting bothersome.

Haven't you noticed! I'm not the only jerk with a bug up my asshole who questions your very facile attempts to think. Sometimes one can only shake one's head! Your "borrowing tendencies" have been duly noted. You're not exceptional in that.

If your bothered, don't reply!

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:28 pmYou are taking mass man out of the sense that Ortega y Gasset defines it and to mean general man not of the elite classes. In O y G's analysis, Mass Man is a social and political force having risen in power in the last roughly 200 years. His view, which I do accept, is that the man has arisen for the political, social and economic changes that occurred specifically in Europe.

Why would this create a "mass man" conception or interpretation if not meant to sound somewhat derogatory? Furthermore, it wasn't specific to Europe but also to the U.S. whose Founding Fathers were completely immersed in European thought together with their own unique laminations of it.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:28 pmIt is also a model (for human and mass possibility) that is now being extended to the entire planet, given the influence of Europe.

What you don't seem to fathom is that there is a great wall emerging which vastly separates the influences between East and West. The ecumenical doctrine of Globalization is unraveling. That's the Realpolitik at this time, likely to last for a long time, assuming we have that long!

Your Ortega quote is mostly, I say MOSTLY water under the bridge, essentially an older European type of conception which is in the process of changing radically. In summary, these old European centered paradigms are undergoing gradual dismemberment.
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Dubious wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:02 pmThe Mass Man phenomena has always been with us in one form or another. Every one of them considered themselves as inevitable, necessary, good and proper. The main difference is the Masses are far greater now than they ever were before. In 1800, it's estimated there were 1 billion people on the planet. In 1950 there were 2.5 billion. To claim that Mass Man did exist prior to 150 years ago is to default to a complete misconception or outright lie!

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:34 pmMy suggestion for you would be to become more familiar with his work before you jump to these conclusions. Again, it is beginning to get irritating.

...not unlike your effect on others which began a long time ago.

Dubious wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:42 pmWhy would this create a "mass man" conception or interpretation if not meant to sound somewhat derogatory? Furthermore, it wasn't specific to Europe but also to the U.S. whose Founding Fathers were completely immersed in European thought together with their own unique laminations of it.

I don’t give a flying fuck what ‘other people have noted’ and using this sort of argument tactic is fallacious. Quote those ‘other people’ if it is that relevant to you. Or stick to your own fucking opinions.

You ask me to explain O y G’s position? Read his bloody book if it seems important enough to you. It is one of those seminal texts that should be read . I think you’d appreciate it.

He is both admiring of the arrival of this mass man, and genuinely concerned by the power mass man wields. He is an intellectual aristocrat, this must be remembered. If you wonder why I align my own views with is it is because, after analysis, I have determined that it is best to align with upper-level intellectual views. You question my analytical capabilities but it is after many years of analysis that I hold to this idea.

Mass Man -- and here I mean you and me and many who are products of mass engineering -- need to look at ourselves very differently. We need to make choices on the basis of other criteria.

The US is an extension of Europe. And it is in America that (in my view) mass man can best be seen and isolated.

Dubious wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:42 pm ...not unlike your effect on others which began a long time ago.

Bring those 'others' here and let them speak. I do not admire that tactic of argumentation. Argue your own points, don't refer to others. It's a cheap shot.

Your Ortega quote is mostly, I say MOSTLY water under the bridge, essentially an older European type of conception which is in the process of changing radically. In summary, these old European centered paradigms are undergoing gradual dismemberment.

Opinion noted. So talk about this, asshole.

What you don't seem to fathom is that there is a great wall emerging which vastly separates the influences between East and West. The ecumenical doctrine of Globalization is unraveling. That's the Realpolitik at this time, likely to last for a long time, assuming we have that long!

If there is something I do not fathom, write about it. But all your references are general and unsubstantiated.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:59 pm

Dubious wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:42 pmWhy would this create a "mass man" conception or interpretation if not meant to sound somewhat derogatory? Furthermore, it wasn't specific to Europe but also to the U.S. whose Founding Fathers were completely immersed in European thought together with their own unique laminations of it.

I don’t give a flying fuck what ‘other people have noted’ and using this sort of argument tactic is fallacious. Quote those ‘other people’ if it is that relevant to you. Or stick to your own fucking opinions.

You ask me to explain O y G’s position? Read his bloody book if it seems important enough to you. It is one of those seminal texts that should be read . I think you’d appreciate it.

He is both admiring of the arrival of this mass man, and genuinely concerned by the power mass man wields. He is an intellectual aristocrat, this must be remembered.

Like Nietzsche, I'm wary of intellectual aristocrats...your guru companions whose views you seemingly accept without critique...or nearly none!

Dubious wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2023 12:07 am Like Nietzsche, I'm wary of intellectual aristocrats...your guru companions whose views you seemingly accept without critique...or nearly none!

Whatever. It is an empty statement unless you qualify it.

I admire aristocracy of the spirit, and of the mind, above almost all things. In all categories. It is a choice I have made. And I can defend it.

Talk about your wariness.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2023 12:05 am

Dubious wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:42 pm ...not unlike your effect on others which began a long time ago.

Bring those 'others' here and let them speak. I do not admire that tactic of argumentation. Argue your own points, don't refer to others. It's a cheap shot.

Your Ortega quote is mostly, I say MOSTLY water under the bridge, essentially an older European type of conception which is in the process of changing radically. In summary, these old European centered paradigms are undergoing gradual dismemberment.

Opinion noted. So talk about this, asshole.

Now, why would you want to talk to an asshole when you instead have the option of talking to someone like IC at length?

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2023 12:10 am

Dubious wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2023 12:07 am Like Nietzsche, I'm wary of intellectual aristocrats...your guru companions whose views you seemingly accept without critique...or nearly none!

Whatever. It is an empty statement unless you qualify it.

I admire aristocracy of the spirit, and of the mind, above almost all things. In all categories. It is a choice I have made. And I can defend it.

Talk about your wariness.

Just like you, with some justification, advised me to read Ortega my advice in regard to Nietzsche is exactly the same.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:39 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:01 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 1:52 pm

Should I be worried; are there plans for AI to replace pensioners?

Yes, pensioners should be worried. AI can do nothing much more effectively than you can.

Yet here is an important consideration. According to José Ortega y Gasset what has most marked our time (the last 150 years) has been the rise of the Mass Man. Technology, medicine, liberal politics and education have brought this Man into existence. Prior to that this Man did not have existence.

This CLAIM IS absolutely ABSURD, or IS just being taken OUT OF CONTEXT and/or being MISINTERPRETED here.

But, if one is just going to provide yet ANOTHER 'label' and PLACE 'it' onto ANOTHER 'group' of human beings, and then CLAIM that 'this group's did or does NOT exist in some period and/or did or does NOT exist in some place, then so be it. But let us NOT FORGET that ANOTHER one of 'you', human beings, could COME ALONG and DO the SAME, while all along PRETENDING that they ACTUALLY KNOW what they are talking about.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:39 pm As Mass Man comes onto the scene, he determines the scene. Society and culture are now molded to his purposes, needs, wants & desires. He sees this as inevitable, necessary, good and proper. His values and ideals dominate. Nothing like this has ever happened and this is one reason why “modernity” is so extraordinary. But also fragile.

LOL 'you', human beings, have been doing the EXACT SAME 'things' since 'you', human beings, have been in Existence. As PROVED True BY and THROUGH human history.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:39 pm Mass Man, in a sense, does nothing — or little. Mass Man gears his life to getting & spending on the whole. Bread & circuses essentially.

In what way will all aspects of AI either supplant or — what’s the word? — enhance the extraneousness of Mass Man?

So-called "mass man" could -what is the word - FALL, literally 'by the wayside', and the ONLY REAL consequence of this would be 'life on earth' WOULD IMPROVE and START BECOMING BETTER and Heaven-like, like 'it' PREVIOUS WAS.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:39 pm Mass Man (the common man) does not really have aspirations except horizontal ones. Vertical aspirations are elite, noble and aristocratic, aren’t they?

How about you STOP ALLUDING and START providing ACTUAL EXAMPLES. For example, what are SOME EXAMPLES OF so-called 'horizontal aspirations' AND so-called 'vertical aspirations'?

I would suggest that ALL human beings HAVE 'vertical aspirations'. But we will NEVER KNOW UNTIL you PROVIDE us with some detail of what 'they' ACTUALLY ARE, EXACTLY.

Also, your CONTRADICTION here IS VERY OBVIOUS, and also could be VERY ANNOYING to some.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:39 pm It is wise to at least be cognizant of the degree to which all of us have been conditioned by common value-sets.

That 'you', human beings, in the days when this is being written, 'aspire' to obtaining MORE and MORE 'MONEY' ( which may be an example of a so-called 'horizontal aspiration'?) and that 'this aspiration' is what is leading 'you', ALL, DOWN a VERY STEEP and DEEP SPIRAL OF DESPAIR, DEMISE, and DESTRUCTION, then this is FAIRLY OBVIOUS, is 'it' NOT.

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:39 pm So how will AI be used in social modification?

But 'this' is ALREADY being done and OCCURRING. Can you REALLY NOT YET ALREADY SEE these CHANGES?

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:39 pm social engineering? Certainly the enhancement of Mass Man’s horizontal aspiration, right?

Harbal wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 3:15 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:01 pm

Harbal wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 1:52 pm

Should I be worried; are there plans for AI to replace pensioners?

Yes, pensioners should be worried. AI can do nothing much more effectively than you can.

Well at least it should free up some time for me to do even less.

It is great to see the 'older' "harbal" back, you know like the "old harbal" with that extremely 'dry and very funny sense of humor'.

The 'one' that tries to 'argue' for its position is NOT as fun, NOR funny. The "previous harbal" provides real humor here. The "Truly Honest harbal" is also very refreshing AS WELL.

Dubious wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2023 12:10 am Now, why would you want to talk to an asshole when you instead have the option of talking to someone like IC at length?

I still had residues I needed to transcend. He served purposes.

Dubious wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2023 12:13 am Just like you, with some justification advised me to read Ortega, my advice in regard to Nietzsche is exactly the same.

I added a needed comma after Ortega. And subtracted another.

Sure, at some point I might read Nietzsche again. I am certainly no Nietzsche master.

But please, talk about what Nietzsche has said that you feel is so important here, so at least I’ll have something to go on …

I’m prepared for edification.

Age wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2023 12:26 am
It is great to see the 'older' "harbal" back, you know like the "old harbal" with that extremely 'dry and very funny sense of humor'.

The 'one' that tries to 'argue' for its position is NOT as fun, NOR funny.

No, it's not as much fun for me, either. I really should stop it.

The "previous harbal" provides real humor here. The "Truly Honest harbal" is also very refreshing AS WELL.

Thanks, Age, that's very good of you to say.

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 7:59 pm

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:28 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:00 pm It seems that could be tagged as well.

We have lists of ingredients in food products. So why not a requirement to list the software used to generate content.

I think that by the time it gets pervasive, people are going to stop caring. It might save a handful of jobs but not all of them. I'm not going to look at the software list when I watch a TV show or movie.

A pervasive acceptance (and tagging) of AI has been in play for many decades now.

According to a quick "AI assisted" search (Google), CAD ("computer aided design") pretty much began back in the 60s. Furthermore, it has always seemed to inspire the notion that something of a higher, more precision oriented (or even other worldly) level of intelligence was involved in the creation of a product.

However, it seems as though the shift from referring to it as "CAD" and now as "AI" has somehow given the impression that some sort of malevolent and self-directing entity is on the verge of literally awakening into existence in the ominous prediction of the so-called "Technological Singularity."

To which I suggest that the real malevolence lies in the sheer foolishness of humans only focusing on the good side of the double-edged sword of advancing technology, where the narrative being pushed is that this...



...is going to lead to "everyone" experiencing more of this,...



...when, in truth, there is only going to be more of this...

WHY do SO MANY people LOOK AT and SEE 'artificial intelligence' AS 'the end of the world', as some might say?

Also, WHY, in the days when this is being written, SO MANY of 'you' SEE 'jobs' as being some sort of NECESSARY part of 'life and living'?

The absolute FOOLISHNESS here is VERY PERVADING.

If 'you' are being TOLD that 'artificial intelligence' WILL LEAD to some so-called 'heaven-like existence', then this is being done BY 'those' who want you to buy MORE 'things', BECAUSE they WANT TO GET MORE 'money' FROM you. Which is NO different from when 'those' who wanted you to BUY MORE cigarettes FROM them were TELLING you that 'smoking' IS GOOD and WILL MAKE you FEEL BETTER.

'you', adult human beings, do have a tendency to be VERY EASILY BELIEF 'things' ARE TRUE and thus be VERY SIMPLY MISLED INTO 'things'. In fact 'you' are SO EASILY and SIMPLY MISLED 'you' can ACTUALLY FOOL and TRICK "your" OWN 'selves' INTO BELIEVING 'things' that are, REALLY, NOT True AT ALL.

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 7:59 pm And this (let's keep shooting ourselves in the foot) idiocy is only getting worse with the ever-growing push to introduce such things as self-driving trucks and taxi cabs into the mix.

WHY is 'this', supposedly, even wrong or bad?

seeds wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 7:59 pm So, what's the solution?
_______

What IS even 'the problem' FIRST?

OBVIOUSLY, for you to LEARN and SEE 'the solution' you NEED to be VERY CLEAR on what, EXACTLY, IS 'the problem'.

I’d greatly APPRECIATE IT, if someone other than myself would RESPOND, in great DEPTH, to Age.

Or AGE as the case should be.

Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Apr 25, 2023 12:39 am
Thanks, Age, that's very good of you to say.

Dear God, if You exist, protect me from Age’s compliments!