Philosophy Now Forum

Posted: **Thu Mar 23, 2023 4:11 pm**

All times are meaningful, mon ami.

Posted: **Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:24 pm**

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 3:18 pm The question isn't really relevant. Men in drag are men and identify as men. Men in drag do not want to be considered women, and are not asking for entry into women's bathrooms.

Perhaps you're confusing drag with trans. The bathroom question is not relevant here.

I'm just looking a little deeper into your question about men in drag in relation to "public places."

First of all, the term "men in drag" doesn't necessarily mean some ultra-flamboyant (over-the-top) characters like these guys...

And, secondly, let's address your naive assumption about drag queens.

From Wiki (emphasis mine):

For much of history, drag queens were men, but in more modern times, cisgender and trans women, as well as non-binary people, also perform as drag queens. In a 2018 article, Psychology Today stated that drag queens are "most typically gay cisgender men (though there are many drag queens of varying sexual orientations and gender identities)".

So, seeing how there is no way to accurately assess the true psychological status of drag queens based on their outward appearance,...

(nor is there any way of truly knowing if someone is simply a harmless, fun-loving drag queen, or a dangerous pervert intending to molest [rape] your little girl in a public restroom)

...then perhaps you should have been a little more specific in what you meant by men in drag walking around in "public places."
_______

Posted: **Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:34 pm**

Right, so what you quoted is only showing what I said, really. Being trans is entirely orthogonal to being in drag. A person in drag CAN be a trans person, just like a person playing tennis CAN be a trans person. But issues about people in drag aren't trans issues, in the same way that issues about tennis players aren't trans issues.

The concern about the bathrooms people in drag use, because you're concerned about trans people, makes as much sense as being concerned about what bathrooms tennis players use, because some tennis players are trans.

"Tennis players are going into the wrong bathroom!" No, you're focusing on some aspect of them that is completely irrelevant to the problem you have with their bathroom choice. The problem you have with their bathroom choice is related to their transness, and not the fact that they play tennis, or are in drag.

Most tennis players are not trans, and they use the bathroom that you would expect them to. Most drag performers are not trans, and they use the bathroom that you expect them to.

Posted: **Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:21 pm**

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:34 pm Right, so what you quoted is only showing what I said, really. Being trans is entirely orthogonal to being in drag. A person in drag CAN be a trans person, just like a person playing tennis CAN be a trans person. But issues about people in drag aren't trans issues, in the same way that issues about tennis players aren't trans issues.

The concern about the bathrooms people in drag use, because you're concerned about trans people, makes as much sense as being concerned about what bathrooms tennis players use, because some tennis players are trans.

"Tennis players are going into the wrong bathroom!" No, you're focusing on some aspect of them that is completely irrelevant to the problem you have with their bathroom choice. The problem you have with their bathroom choice is related to their transness, and not the fact that they play tennis, or are in drag.

Most tennis players are not trans, and they use the bathroom that you would expect them to. Most drag performers are not trans, and they use the bathroom that you expect them to.

You could really do with more work in the analogy usage department...

Posted: **Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:39 pm**

Of course the misogynists on here are choosing to miss the point. According to new laws a MAN doesn't have be wearing women's clothes to use women's toilets and changing rooms. All he has to do is say that he 'identifies' as a woman and no one is allowed to object to him being there.
Rapists are claiming to 'identify' as women so that they can go to women's prisons.
Rapes are being included in statistics as rapes BY women if the rapist claims to 'identify' as a woman.
Women fought hard for women-only spaces because they were fed up with all the sicko male freaks and perverts. If women want to fight to keep these spaces 'man free' then that's their concern and no one else's fucking business.

ps For the delicate, puritanical Americans who can't bear to use the word 'toilet', a 'toilet' is where you go to pee and shit. A 'bathroom' is where you have a bath (or shower). My apologies for using a word that is so offensive to y'all.

Posted: **Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:42 pm**

Why does it seem like so many people here are confused about the difference between drag and trans? Dressing like a woman for a performance =/= identifying as a woman.

Posted: **Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:46 pm**

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:42 pm Why does it seem like so many people here are confused about the difference between drag and trans? Dressing like a woman for a performance =/= identifying as a woman.

Who's confused? Seems like you are the confused one. I'm not confused at all. I know what a man is. I also know what a woman is.

And yes, drag queens perform at drag shows for paid audiences. Some people find them very entertaining.
As far as I am aware they don't normally perform in libraries for child audiences, and their acts generally involve singing or lip-syncing and humour--not book reading. Drag is also time-consuming and uncomfortable and it's not something they would likely choose to go about their mundane daily tasks in.

Posted: **Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:56 pm**

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:21 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:34 pm Right, so what you quoted is only showing what I said, really. Being trans is entirely orthogonal to being in drag. A person in drag CAN be a trans person, just like a person playing tennis CAN be a trans person. But issues about people in drag aren't trans issues, in the same way that issues about tennis players aren't trans issues.

The concern about the bathrooms people in drag use, because you're concerned about trans people, makes as much sense as being concerned about what bathrooms tennis players use, because some tennis players are trans.

"Tennis players are going into the wrong bathroom!" No, you're focusing on some aspect of them that is completely irrelevant to the problem you have with their bathroom choice. The problem you have with their bathroom choice is related to their transness, and not the fact that they play tennis, or are in drag.

Most tennis players are not trans, and they use the bathroom that you would expect them to. Most drag performers are not trans, and they use the bathroom that you expect them to.
You could really do with more work in the analogy usage department...

Right!

I mean, I can't keep count of all the times I mistook these three guys...

...for these three guys...

...and thus, was concerned about those tennis players using the women's restrooms.
_______

Posted: **Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:56 pm**

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:46 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:42 pm Why does it seem like so many people here are confused about the difference between drag and trans? Dressing like a woman for a performance =/= identifying as a woman.
Who's confused? Seems like you are the confused one. I'm not confused at all. I know what a man is. I also know what a woman is.

You. You're complaining about trans issues in a thread about drag queens. It seems as if you don't know that being in drag doesn't make someone trans, because if you did know that, you probably wouldn't think it was contextually relevant to complain about trans issues here.

Posted: **Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:57 pm**

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:34 pm Right, so what you quoted is only showing what I said, really.

What else would I go by other than what you said?

Anyway, here's an excerpt from the website "Page Six" where someone interviewed the most famous drag queen of them all - RuPaul - about his attitude concerning his use of public restrooms:

Answered our No. 1 sometimes-blond drag queen, who’s 7 feet tall on his platform heels:
“Oh, honey, it’s a new age. Out with the old, in with the new....Please...when I’m getting to go into whatever john’s around, I’m not hunting anywhere for some special designated restroom...Go to whatever can you want."

So, there goes your theory about drag queens being super conscientious about only using the men's restrooms.
_______

Posted: **Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:00 pm**

If a man 'identifies' as a woman then I wonder how his gynaecologist feels about having to check his nonexistent prostate.

Posted: **Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:00 pm**

seeds wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:57 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:34 pm Right, so what you quoted is only showing what I said, really.
What else would I go by other than what you said?

Anyway, here's an excerpt from the website "Page Six" where someone interviewed the most famous drag queen of them all - RuPaul - about his attitude concerning his use of public restrooms:
Answered our No. 1 sometimes-blond drag queen, who’s 7 feet tall on his platform heels:
“Oh, honey, it’s a new age. Out with the old, in with the new....Please...when I’m getting to go into whatever john’s around, I’m not hunting anywhere for some special designated restroom...Go to whatever can you want."
So, there goes your theory about drag queens being super conscientious about only using the men's restrooms.
_______

One drag queen performer said, in general, to "go to whatever can you want", and because this one person said that, that means you're justified in worrying about drag peeps in general going into women's restrooms?

I just don't think that's really indicative of much to be honest. So what if that's his opinion? That doesn't mean all of them do that.

Posted: **Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:01 pm**

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:00 pm Question. If a man 'identifies' as a woman then I wonder how his gynaecologist feels about having to check his nonexistent prostate.

Are you lost?

Posted: **Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:02 pm**

Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:56 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:46 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:42 pm Why does it seem like so many people here are confused about the difference between drag and trans? Dressing like a woman for a performance =/= identifying as a woman.
Who's confused? Seems like you are the confused one. I'm not confused at all. I know what a man is. I also know what a woman is.

You. You're complaining about trans issues in a thread about drag queens. It seems as if you don't know that being in drag doesn't make someone trans, because if you did know that, you probably wouldn't think it was contextually relevant to complain about trans issues here.

Again, I'm not confused in the least. Just read back over your comments. With all that contortionism and tying yourself into knots trying to make sense I'm surprised you haven't given yourself a stroke.

Posted: **Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:03 pm**

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:02 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:56 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:46 pm

Who's confused? Seems like you are the confused one. I'm not confused at all. I know what a man is. I also know what a woman is.

You. You're complaining about trans issues in a thread about drag queens. It seems as if you don't know that being in drag doesn't make someone trans, because if you did know that, you probably wouldn't think it was contextually relevant to complain about trans issues here.
Again, I'm not confused in the least. Just read back over your comments. With all that contortionism and tying yourself into knots trying to make sense I'm surprised you haven't given yourself a stroke.

You very clearly are confused. You are complaining about trans people in a thread that doesn't have anything to do with trans people.

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