fascism in America?

[iambiguous]

As I say, perhaps there is no one true path. There may be false paths, and more than one of them and there may be true paths, and more than one of them. If there is not one true path then that might explain why God hasn't done a "better job" of directing people. Perhaps he leaves it up to us to do our best if we so choose.

Or, of course, all of the spiritual/religious paths offering mere mortals immortality and salvation are false. Why? Because there is no immortality and salvation to be had.

Instead, in my view, the danger for mere mortals "down here" on planet Earth, revolves around those who insist it's their path...or else.

The same with political ideologies. Some might be fascists and be content with surrounding themselves with other fascists. But others are intent on attaining political power...forming a fascist government and going after all of those of the wrong skin color or the wrong sexual persuasion or the wrong ethnicity or the wrong moral convictions.

And these fanatics are not interested in exploring the extent to which there might be more than one true path. It's their path. Period.

And, from my frame of mind, with objective morality at stake on this side of the grave and immortality and salvation at stake on the other side [and connecting the dots between them] how can one really believe that God just leaves it all up to us? If it's IC's Christian God, for example, what of those who live out their entire lives and never even become aware of the existence of Christianity? Do they just get a free pass to Heaven?

I can't speak for others. I don't know why some say that only one particular set of rituals is required to please God. I would think that most of us have a moral sensibility and that God perhaps leaves it up to us to navigate the world without strict guidance other than certain basic (and more or less instinctive) rules regarding things like murder or acts of malice toward others.

Unless of course the murder and the malice come from God Himself. And here I quote the Old Testament...over and over and over and over and over and over again.

Then the Nazis who took it to a whole other level. And IC's omnipotent God allowing it to all unfold. I'm reminded of that scene from Raiders of the Lost Ark...a warehouse/ship hold and a crate with a swastika on it. We watch as [supposedly] God burns it away. Take that you Nazis!

And here in America we have Trump spearheading what many construe to be an American rendition of fascism. Semi-fascism?

While from time to time clutching a Bible in his hand.

Speaking for myself, I have chosen to follow the teachings of Christ. I think if everyone followed the teachings of Christ to the letter, then the world would be a much kinder, gentler place with less malice. Like most people I know, I struggle with following Christ, I have plenty of shortcomings and shortfalls. It's not an easy path to follow and maybe not for everyone, I don't know, but it seems to ring true to me. I don't know what happens to anyone when they die, or who will be "saved" and who won't. I'm not God so I'm not privy to that info. I leave it up to others to do what they think would please God.

Again, as I always say, "whatever works". If you are able to believe what you do and this comforts and consoles you, good for you.

I often wish that I could figure out a way to believe it again myself.

But this being a philosophy forum, it's important to dig a little deeper into why we believe what we do. About God. About fascism.

The part that "I" explore more in depth on these threads:

https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=176529
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=194382
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 5&t=185296

[Gary Childress]

As I say, perhaps there is no one true path. There may be false paths, and more than one of them and there may be true paths, and more than one of them. If there is not one true path then that might explain why God hasn't done a "better job" of directing people. Perhaps he leaves it up to us to do our best if we so choose.

Or, of course, all of the spiritual/religious paths offering mere mortals immortality and salvation are false. Why? Because there is no immortality and salvation to be had.

Instead, in my view, the danger for mere mortals "down here" on planet Earth, revolves around those who insist it's their path...or else.

The same with political ideologies. Some might be fascists and be content with surrounding themselves with other fascists. But others are intent on attaining political power...forming a fascist government and going after all of those of the wrong skin color or the wrong sexual persuasion or the wrong ethnicity or the wrong moral convictions.

And these fanatics are not interested in exploring the extent to which there might be more than one true path. It's their path. Period.

And, from my frame of mind, with objective morality at stake on this side of the grave and immortality and salvation at stake on the other side [and connecting the dots between them] how can one really believe that God just leaves it all up to us? If it's IC's Christian God, for example, what of those who live out their entire lives and never even become aware of the existence of Christianity? Do they just get a free pass to Heaven?

I can't speak for others. I don't know why some say that only one particular set of rituals is required to please God. I would think that most of us have a moral sensibility and that God perhaps leaves it up to us to navigate the world without strict guidance other than certain basic (and more or less instinctive) rules regarding things like murder or acts of malice toward others.

Unless of course the murder and the malice come from God Himself. And here I quote the Old Testament...over and over and over and over and over and over again.

Then the Nazis who took it to a whole other level. And IC's omnipotent God allowing it to all unfold. I'm reminded of that scene from Raiders of the Lost Ark...a warehouse/ship hold and a crate with a swastika on it. We watch as [supposedly] God burns it away. Take that you Nazis!

And here in America we have Trump spearheading what many construe to be an American rendition of fascism. Semi-fascism?

While from time to time clutching a Bible in his hand.

Speaking for myself, I have chosen to follow the teachings of Christ. I think if everyone followed the teachings of Christ to the letter, then the world would be a much kinder, gentler place with less malice. Like most people I know, I struggle with following Christ, I have plenty of shortcomings and shortfalls. It's not an easy path to follow and maybe not for everyone, I don't know, but it seems to ring true to me. I don't know what happens to anyone when they die, or who will be "saved" and who won't. I'm not God so I'm not privy to that info. I leave it up to others to do what they think would please God.

Again, as I always say, "whatever works". If you are able to believe what you do and this comforts and consoles you, good for you.

I often wish that I could figure out a way to believe it again myself.

But this being a philosophy forum, it's important to dig a little deeper into why we believe what we do. About God. About fascism.

The part that "I" explore more in depth on these threads:

https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=176529
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=194382
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 5&t=185296

From what I have read of the Bible so far it encourages certain behaviors and discourages others. I, personally, have yet to meet anyone who perfectly exemplifies what the Bible teaches, rather most of us fall short, including myself. We're all sinners. But it is up to God to judge us, not me. Most of the prohibited behaviors seem to me to be behaviors that, when taken to the extreme, can have detrimental effects on a person or community of persons. Most of the encouraged behaviors seem to me to encourage peace and fellowship. Maybe the Bible isn't for everyone. Maybe it's just for messed up people like me. If you don't think the Bible applies to you, then maybe you're doing something right.

[iambiguous]

From what I have read of the Bible so far it encourages certain behaviors and discourages others. I, personally, have yet to meet anyone who perfectly exemplifies what the Bible teaches, rather most of us fall short, including myself. We're all sinners. But it is up to God to judge us, not me. Most of the prohibited behaviors seem to me to be behaviors that, when taken to the extreme, can have detrimental effects on a person or community of persons. Most of the encouraged behaviors seem to me to encourage peace and fellowship. Maybe the Bible isn't for everyone. Maybe it's just for messed up people like me. If you don't think the Bible applies to you, then maybe you're doing something right.

Again, you believe this. It comforts and consoles you to believe it. But this is a philosophy venue. And, in my view, you do not really attempt to respond to the points I raised above. Either in regard to God or in regard to such ideological equivalents as fascism.

Instead, it is more like a reply one might expect to come across in church, or among like-minded friends or around the family dinner table.

That's your prerogative of course. It's just not what I'd expect to encounter in a philosophy discussion forum.

[Immanuel Can]

From what I have read of the Bible so far it encourages certain behaviors and discourages others. I, personally, have yet to meet anyone who perfectly exemplifies what the Bible teaches, rather most of us fall short, including myself. We're all sinners. But it is up to God to judge us, not me. Most of the prohibited behaviors seem to me to be behaviors that, when taken to the extreme, can have detrimental effects on a person or community of persons. Most of the encouraged behaviors seem to me to encourage peace and fellowship. Maybe the Bible isn't for everyone. Maybe it's just for messed up people like me. If you don't think the Bible applies to you, then maybe you're doing something right.

Again, you believe this. It comforts and consoles you to believe it. But this is a philosophy venue. And, in my view, you do not really attempt to respond to the points I raised above. Either in regard to God or in regard to such ideological equivalents as fascism.

Instead, it is more like a reply one might expect to come across in church, or among like-minded friends or around the family dinner table.

That's your prerogative of course. It's just not what I'd expect to encounter in a philosophy discussion forum.

Don't let Biggie deflate you, Gary. He's talking twaddle about the single, greatest touchpoint for Ethics in the entirety of the human tradition. That's a kind of overreach for which there aren't any good terms in the lexicon.

And you're right: the Bible's for messed up people like us. The only problem is, there aren't any non-messed-up people: there are those who know they're messed up, and those who don't imagine they ever could be messed up, but there are no non-messed-up people.

But Jesus came so that "messed up" would not be the last word on us, but rather "redeemed." And "loved." And "made new."

Give God His chance, and see what He can do with "messed up."

[iambiguous]

Don't let Biggie deflate you, Gary. He's talking twaddle about the single, greatest touchpoint for Ethics in the entirety of the human tradition. That's a kind of overreach for which there aren't any good terms in the lexicon.

And you're right: the Bible's for messed up people like us. The only problem is, there aren't any non-messed-up people: there are those who know they're messed up, and those who don't imagine they ever could be messed up, but there are no non-messed-up people.

But Jesus came so that "messed up" would not be the last word on us, but rather "redeemed." And "loved." And "made new."

Give God His chance, and see what He can do with "messed up."

Again, the sort of reply "one might expect to come across in church, or among like-minded friends or around the family dinner table."

Or at a Christian discussion forum?

That's his prerogative as well of course. It's just not what I'd expect to encounter in a philosophy discussion forum.

Well, other than at The New ILP forum perhaps.

Really, imagine receiving the next copy of Philosophy Now magazine, opening it up, and reading something along the lines of the stuff that IC posts here?

Is it any wonder that Donald Trump is able to bring the evangelical flocks of sheep here in America around to...semi-fascism?

[Immanuel Can]

semi-fascism?

Silly boy.

The only "Fascists" are the National Socialists of the Left, the neo-Commies of the declining American empire. It's not by accident that they're the ones burning down cities and beating shop keepers to death.

As for me, I don't know if Trump's dangerous or not. He's not my politician, and it's not my country. I do know that the policies of the Left have produced nothing but disaster, and it's also apparent that in many ways, what Trump was doing was working. He had a firm hand on Afghanistan, a plan for the border, a booming economy, plenty of oil, China and Iran on the back foot, plenty of jobs, thriving agriculture...and whatever you think of the man himself, he seemed to have something going in terms of policy...at least, if you like America.

The Dems, by contrast, have been a world-scale disaster, from start to finish, in every one of these areas and more. Even from the sidelines, that much is apparent to all.

As the Bible says, "By their fruits you shall know them."

[iambiguous]

semi-fascism?

Silly boy.

The only "Fascists" are the National Socialists of the Left, the neo-Commies of the declining American empire. It's not by accident that they're the ones burning down cities and beating shop keepers to death.

As for me, I don't know if Trump's dangerous or not. He's not my politician, and it's not my country. I do know that the policies of the Left have produced nothing but disaster, and it's also apparent that in many ways, what Trump was doing was working. He had a firm hand on Afghanistan, a plan for the border, a booming economy, plenty of oil, China and Iran on the back foot, plenty of jobs, thriving agriculture...and whatever you think of the man himself, he seemed to have something going in terms of policy...at least, if you like America.

The Dems, by contrast, have been a world-scale disaster, from start to finish, in every one of these areas and more. Even from the sidelines, that much is apparent to all.

As the Bible says, "By their fruits you shall know them."

No, seriously...

You receive a copy of Philosophy Now magazine, open it up and read something along the lines of this!!!

Philosophy itself hijacked by the fulminating fanatic objectivists!!!

Now, let's sing along with Bob: https://youtu.be/5y2FuDY6Q4M

[Immanuel Can]

You receive a copy of Philosophy Now magazine, open it up and read something along the lines of this!!!

Well, you picked the topic...

Would I expect PN to have a stand on Trump being a "fascist"? No, they'd never be so silly. But would people respond on a forum if somebody posted something that silly? Maybe.

Maybe they shouldn't. But maybe they would.

Blame yourself, I guess.

[iambiguous]

No, seriously...

You receive a copy of Philosophy Now magazine, open it up and read something along the lines of this!!!

Philosophy itself hijacked by the fulminating fanatic objectivists!!!

Now, let's sing along with Bob: https://youtu.be/5y2FuDY6Q4M

Well, you picked the topic...

Would I expect PN to have a stand on Trump being a "fascist"? No, they'd never be so silly. But would people respond on a forum if somebody posted something that silly? Maybe.

Maybe they shouldn't. But maybe they would.

Blame yourself, I guess.

As always, proving my, uh, "silly" point.

Or, as Danny Embling pondered in Flirting, "people wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me."

[Immanuel Can]

Or, as Danny Embling pondered in Flirting, "people wonder how Hitler managed to get so many followers...it's never surprised me."

Well, the American Left is currently reproducing all the things that the Fascists did during the late Weimar Republic phase of Germany's history...right down the the street thugs in dark shirts terrorizing the "enemies" of the ideology, the rise of big government, the demonizing of elements of the population, the subverting of the democratic process, the cries for national Socialism...and so on.

So yeah, it shouldn't surprise you. But I'd be surprised if Biden or anybody like him had any chance of becoming the next Hitler. He's not competent to tie his own shoes, let alone run a state...that much, we all can see.

[promethean75]

they're all authoritarian meritocratic capitalist systems by defunct tho. you have a government that is either competing with private business for a monopoly of some industry or working with private business to create a monopoly of some industry. in the former it's state capitalism, in the latter it's crony capitalism. neither are 'leftist', both are principally libertarian at different scales,  and the democrat party soft socialists are one of the above categories. but what they aren't are marxist.

But you've got it twice wrong btw. Not only aren't there any American Marxists with any substantial power or say in anything, much less politics (except maybe Bernie), but Marxism is the literal antithesis of fascism.

You're stuck on, or in rather, the vanguard stage of marxist-leninism that took hold of Russia prior to, during and after the October revolution. Not that that's a bad thing - war time calls for stringent measures - but that's not even sumthin Marx or Engels directly articulated in their writings. They called for revolution but didn't directly explain or endorse any particular way to achieve it... only that the workers would need to be organized and armed.

So you're beef is with the marxist-leninists. All of em, really, because they all followed and applied Leninism in their politics. Mao, Castro, pol pot, Stalin, all of em.

Now here's the thing. Fortunately for them, their countries would spoil anyway because they were competing with western capitalism... so... they can retain their party's hierarchical power claiming it wuz necessary for order and progress in a world like this. See what I mean? The revolutions stalled in their development and stayed at an immature stage (Leninism) because they were essentially premature. But you can't call that in advance. You can only use that as an excuse after and if one fails.

Now I'm agreeing with the evolutionary socialists more so these days than the revolutionary socialists. I think if a Marxist model comes into existence, it'll be after a series of transitions and reforms made gradually over a period of time.

I siriusly doubt there will ever be another armed working class revolution.

[Immanuel Can]

they're all authoritarian meritocratic capitalist systems by defunct tho.

Prom, Prom, Prom... a system cannot possibly be both "authoritarian" and "meritocratic." "Authoritarian" means "rule by an authority," and "meritocratic" means "rule by merit." And there is no such thing as "Capitalism." That's a Marxist fiction, a projection of their own ideological drivenness on people who have no ideological drivenness.

you have a government that is either competing with private business for a monopoly of some industry or working with private business to create a monopoly of some industry.

Under Socialism, there's no "competition" at all. The State suffocates all of it. So I have no idea what "system" you're taking about. It certainly isn't true in free markets.

...the democrat party soft socialists are one of the above categories. but what they aren't are marxist.

Their hard-Left wing is. But up to now, most Democrats have been soft Socialists. The problem is that that is changing fast.

Not only aren't there any American Marxists with any substantial power or say in anything,

I take it you don't know the field of education. Because if you did, you'd never say that.

You're stuck on, or in rather, the vanguard stage of marxist-leninism that took hold of Russia prior to, during and after the October revolution.

Not at all. I'm speaking of the post-Frankfurt School, American Marxists.

Go and read "Race Marxism," by James Lindsay. You'll change your mind.

...you can't call that in advance. You can only use that as an excuse after and if one fails.

All the Communist states have failed. 100% of them. There's no successful Socialism in the history of the globe.

How much failure do you have to see before you recognize there's a problem? Of course, that assumes you're not so arrogant as to actually believe that all the people in China, Russia, Vietnam, Venezuela, Zimbabwe, Congo, Cuba, Cambodia, North Korea...and on, and on, and on, were simply too stupid and "immature" to get it right, and somehow, you're so much smarter than all of them that you'd get it right...I'm not thinking you'd ever possibly be arrogant enough to imagine that.

But I'm at a loss to explain your lack of reference to their experience, and your confidence in your own prospects, if you think they weren't "real Marxism."

I siriusly doubt there will ever be another armed working class revolution.

Even the Neo-Marxists think that's impossible. They know Marx was wrong. That's why they call his Marxism "vulgar Marxism," and their own, "mature Marxism." And yes, they're just that arrogant; they think they're a whole lot smarter than he was, and they're right when he was obviously wrong.

But today's Marxists, like the founders of BLM, for instance, think that "race" not "class" is the new category that can produce their "revolution." Other Marxists think "sex" or "gender" or a combination of all of the aforesaid will get it for them. And they all foolishly think that all they've got to do is destroy the status quo, and history will magically step up and lead us all on to Marxist utopia. And yes, they're just that ideologically-possessed...

Again, you need to read Lindsay on that.

[Gary Childress]

From what I have read of the Bible so far it encourages certain behaviors and discourages others. I, personally, have yet to meet anyone who perfectly exemplifies what the Bible teaches, rather most of us fall short, including myself. We're all sinners. But it is up to God to judge us, not me. Most of the prohibited behaviors seem to me to be behaviors that, when taken to the extreme, can have detrimental effects on a person or community of persons. Most of the encouraged behaviors seem to me to encourage peace and fellowship. Maybe the Bible isn't for everyone. Maybe it's just for messed up people like me. If you don't think the Bible applies to you, then maybe you're doing something right.

Again, you believe this. It comforts and consoles you to believe it. But this is a philosophy venue. And, in my view, you do not really attempt to respond to the points I raised above. Either in regard to God or in regard to such ideological equivalents as fascism.

Instead, it is more like a reply one might expect to come across in church, or among like-minded friends or around the family dinner table.

That's your prerogative of course. It's just not what I'd expect to encounter in a philosophy discussion forum.

I disagree that a person ought not share their metaphysical speculations on a philosophy forum. I've heard plenty of metaphysical statements made on this forum.

[Belinda]

Fascism is Goliath against David as democracy.

[Immanuel Can]

Fascism is Goliath against David as democracy.

Where is this huge "giant" of yours, B? It should be incredibly hard to hide...Yet there are no modern Fascists at all...just a bunch of Lefties calling everybody who disagrees with them "fascists..."

...while burning down cities, demonizing "races," bludgeoning opponents, denying free people a right to speak or defend themselves against big government, getting involved militarily in other countries and eliminating alternate political parties....rather like the Fascists did...

In which case, point taken.