Philosophy Now Forum

bahman wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 5:13 pm Can you do evil in Heaven?

Well, the problem is that people have cartoon ideas about "heaven;" let's just say, "in the eternal state," and we can leave it at that.

The answer is, "No."

It is not about programming humans.

It would be, if God had done things that way.

If God had made humans perfectly incapable of choosing anything other than Him, then they would not be free in respect to their relationship to God. They could not choose Him. They would have no option.

I don't see God in my heart.

Where do you see a promise of God being "in your heart" in Romans? I'm not aware that that idea appears anywhere in the Bible, actually.

I don't think if there is any rational person who knows that there is a good close the door.

A "God," did you mean to write? Or did you mean to say, "People only do good things"?

Well, people are different, aren't they? Some make good, rational choices, and some make selfish and evil choices. That's what we do. Some people even know what the good is, and choose the evil. Were it not so, we would have no jails, no tyrants, no rapists, no pedophiles, and no abortionists. There's a difference between knowing what the good is, and choosing the good. More often than not, human beings prefer to do things their own way.

The people just don't believe because there are not enough evidences.

The Bible denies that, and empirical facts don't support that objection. All you could possibly say is that, perhaps, not enough people are aware of what evidences there are -- but Romans even rules out that objection. It says that people DO have enough, and that they all should know there's a God. They just choose not to act as if there is.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 5:34 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 5:13 pm Can you do evil in Heaven?

Well, the problem is that people have cartoon ideas about "heaven;" let's just say, "in the eternal state," and we can leave it at that.

The answer is, "No."

So the state of a person in Heaven is such that he cannot do evil, robot as you call.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 5:34 pm

It is not about programming humans.

It would be, if God had done things that way.

If God had made humans perfectly incapable of choosing anything other than Him, then they would not be free in respect to their relationship to God. They could not choose Him. They would have no option.

Are we robots in Heaven?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 5:34 pm

I don't see God in my heart.

Where do you see a promise of God being "in your heart" in Romans? I'm not aware that that idea appears anywhere in the Bible, actually.

That was your comment.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 5:34 pm

I don't think if there is any rational person who knows that there is a good close the door.

A "God," did you mean to write? Or did you mean to say, "People only do good things"?

Well, people are different, aren't they? Some make good, rational choices, and some make selfish and evil choices. That's what we do. Some people even know what the good is, and choose the evil. Were it not so, we would have no jails, no tyrants, no rapists, no pedophiles, and no abortionists. There's a difference between knowing what the good is, and choosing the good. More often than not, human beings prefer to do things their own way.

Yes, I meant God. Yes, people are different since they have different natures. So somehow they are not responsible for their choice as they are not responsible for having specific nature.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 5:34 pm

The people just don't believe because there are not enough evidences.

The Bible denies that, and empirical facts don't support that objection. All you could possibly say is that, perhaps, not enough people are aware of what evidences there are -- but Romans even rules out that objection. It says that people DO have enough, and that they all should know there's a God. They just choose not to act as if there is.

Give me one piece of evidence that there is a God.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 5:45 pm So the state of a person in Heaven is such that he cannot do evil, robot as you call.

No more than a married person is thereby made a "robot."

Some choices, you don't have to make the choice more than once. Marriage is one. This is another.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 5:34 pm

I don't see God in my heart.

Where do you see a promise of God being "in your heart" in Romans? I'm not aware that that idea appears anywhere in the Bible, actually.

That was your comment.

No, actually: I see I've been misunderstood.

By "in your heart," I didn't mean to imply that everybody has a mystical experience. The phrase is merely a substitute for "deep down" or "in the back you your mind." It just means that one knows something, but doesn't want to admit -- perhaps even to oneself -- that one does.

Yes, people are different since they have different natures.

I don't think they do.

Human nature is of a common kind; it's individual choices that may differ.

Give me one piece of evidence that there is a God.

Romans already gave you one, at the very least. Well, it actually gave you a couple.

One is the fact of the infinite complexity of nature itself. Another is the miracle of your own existence and consciousness. But there are tons more, as well. How many do you want?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 1:29 pm

Dubious wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 9:52 am So, just to verify, if I choose "my will" you know, the one I was endowed with by your god supposedly, then I'm screwed. If I also don't believe in Jesus, I'm doubly screwed!

You get what you ask for. If you have decided you want no part of God, then that is exactly what you get. As Lewis said,“There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done."

What is your will?

What are you going to ask for?

What you want is what you'll get.

Well, instead of wanting no part of god, I'll take ALL of its non-existence. We have collectively headed, since time began, toward the same cosmic landfill which includes every theist whoever lived, including Jesus who was crucified in the same manner as so many others. There was nothing exceptional in his death. In the meantime, you're free to pick and choose your beliefs however you like, no matter how improbable or absurd. It makes no difference in the end and no difference in the here & now except to yourself.

The only advantage I can see for types like you, while still breathing, is that you persist in the comfort of being saved as I am of being neutralized with no knowledge of me ever having existed...which doesn't bother me in the least and furthermore, can't think of a single reason why it would.

This natural event kind of closure makes me neither sad nor happy being all in the nature of things. The death of a human is the same as the death of any animal.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 6:53 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 5:45 pm So the state of a person in Heaven is such that he cannot do evil, robot as you call.

No more than a married person is thereby made a "robot."

Some choices, you don't have to make the choice more than once. Marriage is one. This is another.

So you are talking about a condition in Heaven that you cannot choose evil (robot by your definition). Why didn't God create the same condition in Paradise after creating humans?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 6:53 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 5:34 pm
Where do you see a promise of God being "in your heart" in Romans? I'm not aware that that idea appears anywhere in the Bible, actually.

That was your comment.

No, actually: I see I've been misunderstood.

By "in your heart," I didn't mean to imply that everybody has a mystical experience. The phrase is merely a substitute for "deep down" or "in the back you your mind." It just means that one knows something, but doesn't want to admit -- perhaps even to oneself -- that one does.

Do you believe that there are honest atheists?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 6:53 pm

Yes, people are different since they have different natures.

I don't think they do.

Human nature is of a common kind; it's individual choices that may differ.

Please do google "crime gene".

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 6:53 pm

Give me one piece of evidence that there is a God.

Romans already gave you one, at the very least. Well, it actually gave you a couple.

One is the fact of the infinite complexity of nature itself. Another is the miracle of your own existence and consciousness. But there are tons more, as well. How many do you want?

None of these are evidence for God.

Dubious wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 8:30 pm Well, instead of wanting no part of god, I'll take ALL of its non-existence.

And unfortunate choice, since that's not one being offered.

Nobody gets the option of not having reality as it actually is. What we have to do, instead, is deal with reality.

The death of a human is the same as the death of any animal.

You'll find out if that's true or not. And you'll find out, then, whether or not you've met the test of dealing with reality.

But if you are right, you and I will never know: and if I'm right, we'll both end up knowing. That's also a thought worth considering.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 10:08 pm Why didn't God create the same condition in Paradise after creating humans?

Because free will is a surpassing good. It permits such things as identity, volition, personhood, and choice of one's relationships.

Do you believe that there are honest atheists?

I believe there are Atheists that think they mean what they say. There are, for example, very morally earnest people, even among my friends, who would call themselves "Atheists" and think they were.

But if they thought about what Atheism really means or entails, even for a few seconds, they'd realize that they can't be being honest with themselves.

Atheism isn't always a moral failure: but it is always a failure of logic.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 6:53 pm

Yes, people are different since they have different natures.

I don't think they do.

Human nature is of a common kind; it's individual choices that may differ.

Please do google "crime gene".

Genetics is a range. Of course people have somewhat different genetic makeup. But all within the range of the human.

Meanwhile, genetics do not predetermine our choices. They may have some influence on some of our temptations, however. There may be a genetic component to alcoholism, for example. However, not all people with that genetic pattern are, in fact, alcoholics; they just remain more susceptible.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 6:53 pm

Give me one piece of evidence that there is a God.

Romans already gave you one, at the very least. Well, it actually gave you a couple.

One is the fact of the infinite complexity of nature itself. Another is the miracle of your own existence and consciousness. But there are tons more, as well. How many do you want?

None of these are evidence for God.

The Bible says they are. I think they are.

But okay, I'll play: let's see if I can please you.

If there were an evidence for God, what would it look like? What would you accept as evidence of God's existence? If I can provide you with it, I will.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 10:31 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 10:08 pm Why didn't God create the same condition in Paradise after creating humans?

Because free will is a surpassing good. It permits such things as identity, volition, personhood, and choice of one's relationships.

But you will not have the choice of evil when you are in Heaven. So what is happening with your free will?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 10:31 pm

Do you believe that there are honest atheists?

I believe there are Atheists that think they mean what they say. There are, for example, very morally earnest people, even among my friends, who would call themselves "Atheists" and think they were.

But if they thought about what Atheism really means or entails, even for a few seconds, they'd realize that they can't be being honest with themselves.

Atheism isn't always a moral failure: but it is always a failure of logic.

Aha, now you are not making sense at all.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 10:31 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 6:53 pm
I don't think they do.

Human nature is of a common kind; it's individual choices that may differ.

Please do google "crime gene".

Genetics is a range. Of course people have somewhat different genetic makeup. But all within the range of the human.

Meanwhile, genetics do not predetermine our choices. They may have some influence on some of our temptations, however. There may be a genetic component to alcoholism, for example. However, not all people with that genetic pattern are, in fact, alcoholics; they just remain more susceptible.

Genetics dictate a tendency toward certain behavior.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 6:53 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 6:53 pm
Romans already gave you one, at the very least. Well, it actually gave you a couple.

One is the fact of the infinite complexity of nature itself. Another is the miracle of your own existence and consciousness. But there are tons more, as well. How many do you want?

None of these are evidence for God.

The Bible says they are. I think they are.

But okay, I'll play: let's see if I can please you.

If there were an evidence for God, what would it look like? What would you accept as evidence of God's existence? If I can provide you with it, I will.

You cannot help me. If there is a God who is all-powerful, why He does not come down from Heaven and show everybody that He exists. As simple as that.

bahman wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 11:00 pm But you will not have the choice of evil when you are in Heaven. So what is happening with your free will?

Nothing at all.

Once you get married, you no longer have the choice of sleeping with every woman you meet. Does that mean you were not free in getting married?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 10:31 pm Atheism isn't always a moral failure: but it is always a failure of logic.

Aha, now you are not making sense at all.

Explain.

Genetics dictate a tendency toward certain behavior.

A "tendency" is not an "inevitability." And there's nothing "certain" about what a person will choose.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 6:53 pm

None of these are evidence for God.

The Bible says they are. I think they are.

But okay, I'll play: let's see if I can please you.

If there were an evidence for God, what would it look like? What would you accept as evidence of God's existence? If I can provide you with it, I will.

You cannot help me.

Well, then, you cannot complain that I have not provided you with evidence for God. There is, quite simply, then, nothing you will allow to BE evidence for God.

If there is a God who is all-powerful, why He does not come down from Heaven and show everybody that He exists. As simple as tha

t.
The answer, Biblically speaking, is that because if He did, you would have no choice at all but to believe in Him. And all the people who were born afterward would also be without any choice. The personal presence of God is overwhelming...so powerful, that He said to Moses and to Elijah as well, "No one can see my face and live." And as for those people who even after had a vision of God (like Isaiah and John), the Bible says they "fell on their faces like dead men." That's pretty overwhelming: if God shows up, there's no choice anymore.

But God desires us to have the choice. He does not force us to love and know Him. He offers it freely.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 10:23 pm

Dubious wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 8:30 pm Well, instead of wanting no part of god, I'll take ALL of its non-existence.

And unfortunate choice, since that's not one being offered.

Nobody gets the option of not having reality as it actually is. What we have to do, instead, is deal with reality.

The death of a human is the same as the death of any animal.

You'll find out if that's true or not. And you'll find out, then, whether or not you've met the test of dealing with reality.

But if you are right, you and I will never know: and if I'm right, we'll both end up knowing. That's also a thought worth considering.

That's the only thing you said that's true here. The universe and nature do not operate according to biblical rules and that's a reality; like it or not!

To nature we're no better than any other animal in existence or ever existed. Of course, that won't do as far as we're concerned. The only way to counter that is by our overwhelming ability to accept absurdity as substitute of which you are an outstanding example.

Dubious wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 11:33 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 10:23 pm But if you are right, you and I will never know: and if I'm right, we'll both end up knowing. That's also a thought worth considering.

That's the only thing you said that's true here.

Think about that. Think carefully.

Dubious wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 8:30 pm Well, instead of wanting no part of god, I'll take ALL of its non-existence.

That's an interesting point. If we have free will to choose, then why can't we choose non-existence, good point Dubious.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 10:23 pmAnd unfortunate choice, since that's not one being offered.
Nobody gets the option of not having reality as it actually is. What we have to do, instead, is deal with reality.

When you say ''not having reality as it actually is'' Do you mean nobody gets the option of not having reality as it is KNOWN to them? .. that just means we are stuck in the 'what is' forever then...if nobody gets the option of non-existence.
That means we are stuck forever in a situation where we have to deal with a reality that is both good and evil where we are then given the option to deal with that forever good and evil reality?

Is that what you are saying IC ?

If you are then that just means evil will always be part of the reality of ''what is'' ..right? so we'll always be both sinners and saints..right? ...

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 10:23 pmYou'll find out if that's true or not. And you'll find out, then, whether or not you've met the test of dealing with reality.
But if you are right, you and I will never know: and if I'm right, we'll both end up knowing. That's also a thought worth considering.

The idea we do not get to choose non-existence is the only reason why choice is a known concept to us in existence, because it is only through knowing we exist.. can we also know we cannot know non-existence..and that's how the opposites become known to this knowing...right? ..that's how ''choice'' is tested...in the here and now, realtime...the only place we will ever be certain about.

This place here now...is the only heaven and hell we will ever know...both heaven and hell have to exist at the same time ...right?

Choice is more to do with actual KNOWING...right? ..it's not about choosing the already fixed reality of ''WHAT IS'' ..it's about ''KNOWING'' the difference of opposites that MUST always be of the same one reality that is the actual 'WHAT IS'' ...right?

To know is also to not know...that's the dynamic of opposites right IC? ...is this correct and fair to say?

IC...Why call him God...why not just call him the ''What Is'' ?

And the good thing about calling God the ''what is'' ...is that it can never be the ''what isn't''... else there would be absolutely NO difference ...knowing is through contrast...and contrast is known ..only in conceptual KNOWING ...and every single no body is that same one KNOWING.....right?


.

"You cannot help me. If there is a God who is all-powerful, why He does not come down from Heaven and show everybody that He exists. As simple as that."

If 'god' provided direct proof of 'his' existence, this would change the nature and terms of the choice. You have to be able to chose to take a leap of faith in believing in something that can't be proven.

That's a typical apologist response. Okay, but what's the difference in choosing to believe in x and choosing the 'good' therefore, and directly experiencing and knowing x, and choosing the 'good' therefore?

Ah, I see. This in fact isn't an essential feature and 'god' could have excluded it and saved us a lot of trouble.

The reason for the commitment to the 'good' has less to do with the veracity of the proof that 'god' exists or not, and more to do with the existential consequences of bisbelief. Pascal had to have thought of this.

Really the motivating force to do the 'good' is that effort to avoid the punishment, damnation, eternal torment, separation from 'god', etc., promised by the religion.

So 'god' could just as easily have revealed himself, indisputably, and the terms and conditions of the compulsion of humans to choose, would be the same. They'd be deciding for the same reasons.

'Faith' has absolutely no necessary function in the mechanics of Christianity... and, in fact, can create all kinds of unnecessary confusion and frustration in its believers.

Not only that, but there's also the proof that a claimed revelatory experience of 'god' was not an imposter, that's a problem.

Moreover, 'god' would know about this problem, so we'd expect 'him' not to hold us accountable for our skepticism toward revelatory knowledge of 'him'. In other words, 'god' wouldn't do it that way. Ergo, Christianity would have to be false cuz 'god' don't be trippin like that.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sat May 07, 2022 6:16 am ...why can't we choose non-existence

Because with non-existence, there's no "you" to do the choosing.

That's always been the problem with your incoherent worldview: you posit the non-existence of the various entities requisite to positing anything.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat May 07, 2022 2:49 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sat May 07, 2022 6:16 am ...why can't we choose non-existence

Because with non-existence, there's no "you" to do the choosing.

That's always been the problem with your incoherent worldview: you posit the non-existence of the various entities requisite to positing anything.

Well that's the trap of conceptual knowing, that falls on your deaf ears.
There's no such thing as non-existence. So who chooses existence, answer is no one does, because conceptual objects cannot know they exist.

As long as you continue to reject nondual understanding for what it is, then you'll never understand that non-existence IS existence...and all I can do is keep pointing this out to you.

just bloody admit you do not understand nonduality..no one is going to judge you, no one will think any less of you.

The problem is all inside your head. Now if only I could just see my own brain, wouldn't that be great, perhaps then I could have chosen to abort the dam thing before it became a weapon of mass destruction.