Philosophy Now Forum

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:53 am veg,

You are from the deep south. The bible belt. Do you really think you would have thought this way if you were living in the 1850s?

yep

lots of folks, in 1850, in the deep south bible belt, opposed slavery becuz they recognized and respected a man self-possesses

and today, all over the modern, enlightened, world, there are lots of folks who enslave others: it's an industry

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:51 pm Except that you aren't against slavery for noble reasons.

I'm not noble, only consistent.

If it's wrong to enslave a man, it's wrong to enslave any man.

bluntly: I don't give two flips about you, veg, but I'd still fight to get you out of slavery (not for your sake, but becuz, as worthless as you are to me, you're a person, and it's wrong you should be treated as property)

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:15 pm What does 'freedom' even mean? The 'freedom' to have as short and stressful a life as possible, crammed with grief and misery?
The last time I visited a zoo I saw contented, happy beings who had their every need catered to. A well run and empathetic zoo would be like heaven to our fellow animals. Why would a happy gorilla that has been raised with humans want to be 'returned to the wild' any more than your average human would want to be dumped into the middle of a jungle?

How Slavery Is Put Over

It's not called slavery, it's called, "social order," when individuals are forced to comply with rules made by some for the benefit of others. It begins small. It's only a little oppression, but it's, "for a good cause," but once a principle is violated, whatever the justification, there is never a limit to that violation. Once freedom is violated, there is no end of the restrictions and demands on one's choices and life that will follow.

What begins as, "we cannot allow people to starve," ends as, "we cannot allow people to be uneducated, not have good housing, be poor in their old age, not have health care, not have a job, not be protected from scurrilous marketers, not be "safe" on the highway, business, homes, bathrooms, or ... (supply your favorite thing no one should have to go without, whether they earn it or not). You can have all of these things and more, at least until the slaves who are supplying them realize they are slaves; you can have them, but you cannot have them and freedom too.

The Price Of Freedom

The price of freedom is not having all those things. It is the price most are unwilling to pay. It means not having the government supply your education, health care, expensive drugs, and guaranteed retirement income. It means not being guaranteed no one will ever say something mean to or about you. It means there are no guarantees. It means you will live in a world of danger, temptation, and risks. It means you will be responsible for every aspect of your own life from the time you reach adulthood until you die. It means, if you mess up your life, you and only you will suffer the consequences.

That is the price of freedom. It is the price most people are not willing to pay.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:22 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:51 pm Except that you aren't against slavery for noble reasons.

I'm not noble, only consistent.

If it's wrong to enslave a man, it's wrong to enslave any man.

bluntly: I don't give two flips about you, veg, but I'd still fight to get you out of slavery (not for your sake, but becuz, as worthless as you are to me, you're a person, and it's wrong you should be treated as property)

There's that blast of hot air again Why would I want some do-gooder to 'fight' for me when he doesn't give a flying rat's turd about me? How patronising. You sound about as deep and genuine as a wokie. You have no substance (so the wokie comparison is particularly apt).

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:45 am VA,

What is 'freedom' and 'autonomy' is also conditioned upon the point that every individual must align with the same the universal moral law of absolute good. There can be no 'respect' if the other[s] are not in alignment with it.

As I say (to veg, upthread): A person belongs to himself. You belong to you. To enslave you, to view you as, treat you as, property, is to ignore your self-possession. No one -- not you, me, not anyone -- believes it's their lot to be property. It's the single universal feature of all people. Even the slaver won't willingly accept enslavement.

Every person, I think, is aware of natural law/rights: it's a universal feature or intuition. But man is also a free will, not a robot: he can choose, as the slaver does, to ignore the other guy's self-possession. Ain't nuthin' to be done about it except defend against it (and him).

Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:41 pm In short, freedom to x, or with respect to x, is the ability to make a choice about x.

So, freedom of religion, for example, means that one is able to choose what religion to worship or not, including choosing no religion at all.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:51 pm Except that you aren't against slavery for noble reasons.

I'm not noble, only consistent.

If it's wrong to enslave a man, it's wrong to enslave any man.

bluntly: I don't give two flips about you, veg, but I'd still fight to get you out of slavery (not for your sake, but becuz, as worthless as you are to me, you're a person, and it's wrong you should be treated as property)

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:45 pm
Most people do not want to be free. George Bernard Shaw was right, "freedom means responsibility, that's why most men dread it."

That is the price of freedom. The price most people are not willing to pay.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:45 am VA,

What is 'freedom' and 'autonomy' is also conditioned upon the point that every individual must align with the same the universal moral law of absolute good. There can be no 'respect' if the other[s] are not in alignment with it.

As I say (to veg, upthread): A person belongs to himself. You belong to you. To enslave you, to view you as, treat you as, property, is to ignore your self-possession. No one -- not you, me, not anyone -- believes it's their lot to be property. It's the single universal feature of all people. Even the slaver won't willingly accept enslavement.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:45 am Every person, I think, is aware of natural law/rights: it's a universal feature or intuition. But man is also a free will, not a robot: he can choose, as the slaver does, to ignore the other guy's self-possession. Ain't nuthin' to be done about it except defend against it (and him).

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:53 am veg,

You are from the deep south. The bible belt. Do you really think you would have thought this way if you were living in the 1850s?

yep

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:53 am lots of folks, in 1850, in the deep south bible belt, opposed slavery becuz they recognized and respected a man self-possesses

and today, all over the modern, enlightened, world, there are lots of folks who enslave others: it's an industry

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:54 am age,

WHO are 'you', and WHAT is your purpose, on this planet?

none of your bee's wax

henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:54 am But 'you', "henry quirk", are "allowed" to BLOW AWAY the bodies of "others", whenever you BELIEVE you can, correct?

nope

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:45 pm
Most people do not want to be free. George Bernard Shaw was right, "freedom means responsibility, that's why most men dread it."

That is the price of freedom. It is the price most people are not willing to pay.