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Re: Calculations Suggest It'll Be Impossible to Control a Super-Intelligent AI
Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:19 pm
by Skepdick
wtf wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:16 pm
You can run a simulation, but where does the self-awareness of the sims come from? We have no idea how to implement self-awareness; so all theories that assume this can be done, are just making shit up.
You could start with separating the two questions.
Can it be done?
HOW can it be done?
IF we live in a simulation then it is a fact THAT sims (we, humans) have self-awareness. HOW? We don't know!
The other angle of reasoning is that you don't actually know that software doesn't have self-awareness.
You don't even know if I have self-awareness. I am only reflexively refering to myself. But so does software.
It's all the usual confusion that arises from intensional vs extensional properties.
Re: Calculations Suggest It'll Be Impossible to Control a Super-Intelligent AI
Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:30 pm
by Skepdick
wtf wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:16 pm
All theories that assume that someone can implement consciousness are just making things up.
The thing that pisses me off most about this line of reasoning is the self-determination of "consciousness".
My intellectually honest default position is that I don't know whether I am conscious or not. It's just something I say about myself given the social connotation of that word, but I am well aware that it's just a word.
wtf wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:16 pm
Nobody knows what consciousness is, let alone how to produce it with an algorithm.
Exactly! How can you assert consciousness if you don't know what it is?
Pick any gibberish/non-sensical term that you don't understand. Say "spelunkadunking", and ascribe it to yourself.
If you don't know what spelunkadunking IS how can you possibly determine whether you are spelunkadunking or not?
If you don't know what consciousness IS how can you possibly determine whether you are conscious or not?
So take that skepticism a notch further: nobody knows whether consciousness even exists! But algorithms do exist, and I may be fully determined by one. It all boils down to the sort of behaviour/traits/properties that convinces you some physical system (synthetic OR natural) is "conscious".
Re: Calculations Suggest It'll Be Impossible to Control a Super-Intelligent AI
Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 12:31 am
by commonsense
Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:30 pm
wtf wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:16 pm
All theories that assume that someone can implement consciousness are just making things up.
The thing that pisses me off most about this line of reasoning is the self-determination of "consciousness".
My intellectually honest default position is that I don't know whether I am conscious or not. It's just something I say about myself given the social connotation of that word, but I am well aware that it's just a word.
wtf wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:16 pm
Nobody knows what consciousness is, let alone how to produce it with an algorithm.
Exactly! How can you assert consciousness if you don't know what it is?
Pick any gibberish/non-sensical term that you don't understand. Say "spelunkadunking", and ascribe it to yourself.
If you don't know what spelunkadunking IS how can you possibly determine whether you are spelunkadunking or not?
If you don't know what consciousness IS how can you possibly determine whether you are conscious or not?
So take that skepticism a notch further: nobody knows whether consciousness even exists! But algorithms do exist, and I may be fully determined by one. It all boils down to the sort of behaviour/traits/properties that convinces you some physical system (synthetic OR natural) is "conscious".
If I don’t know what consciousness I can only hazard a guess that plausibly I am conscious. If I can’t know anything, a guess is as close to knowledge as I can get. So, if I guess I am conscious, I am conscious. No?
Re: Calculations Suggest It'll Be Impossible to Control a Super-Intelligent AI
Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 12:51 am
by wtf
Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:30 pm
My intellectually honest default position is that I don't know whether I am conscious or not.
So if I characterized you as a person utterly devoid of self-awareness, you'd agree, right? Because that's pretty much the conclusion I've come to from my interactions with you.
Re: Calculations Suggest It'll Be Impossible to Control a Super-Intelligent AI
Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:09 am
by Skepdick
wtf wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 12:51 am
Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:30 pm
My intellectually honest default position is that I don't know whether I am conscious or not.
So if I characterized you as a person utterly devoid of self-awareness, you'd agree, right? Because that's pretty much the conclusion I've come to from my interactions with you.
Way to miss the point! Of course I am self-aware! But so is every
reflexive program I've ever written!
So if what you call "conscious" is my ability to examine, introspect, and modify the structure of my thoughts and alter my own behavior
at runtime then by that yardstick computers are already conscious.
Perhaps you want to play this semantic game recursively? You pointed out that nobody knows what consciousness IS...Nobody knows what self-awareness IS either.
Conscious. Self-aware. Sentient etc. is just how we characterise ourselves. It's an intensional property.
Re: Calculations Suggest It'll Be Impossible to Control a Super-Intelligent AI
Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:34 am
by wtf
Skepdick wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:09 am
My intellectually honest default position is that I don't know whether I am conscious or not.
Skepdick wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:09 am
Of course I am self-aware!
Make up your mind ... if you believe you have one! lol
Re: Calculations Suggest It'll Be Impossible to Control a Super-Intelligent AI
Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:37 am
by Skepdick
wtf wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:34 am
Skepdick wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:09 am
My intellectually honest default position is that I don't know whether I am conscious or not.
Skepdick wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:09 am
Of course I am self-aware!
Make up your mind ... if you believe you have one! lol
*sigh* so you want to play the infinitely-recursive game... OK!
You admitted that nobody (and therefore you) don't know what consciousness IS.
Do YOU know what self-awareness IS?
If you don't know what (consciousness|self-awareness|sentience) IS how could you possibly assert that you are (conscious|self-aware|sentient)?
Which generalises to: If you don't know what X IS how could you possibly assert that you are X? X is a free variable.
So do you; or don't you know what (consciousness|self-awareness|sentience) IS? Make up your mind!
Re: Calculations Suggest It'll Be Impossible to Control a Super-Intelligent AI
Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:47 am
by wtf
Skepdick wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:37 am
You admitted that nobody (and therefore you) don't know what consciousness IS.
Nobody knows how to implement consciousness. Therefore one of the main premises of the simulation argument is flawed.
I haven't found interacting with you to be either pleasant or productive over the years so I'll let you have the last word here.
Re: Calculations Suggest It'll Be Impossible to Control a Super-Intelligent AI
Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:49 am
by Skepdick
wtf wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:47 am
Nobody knows how to implement consciousness.
Is that true though? You never addressed this point...
Skepdick wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:09 am
If what you call "conscious" is my ability to examine, introspect, and modify the structure of my thoughts and alter my own behavior
at runtime then by that yardstick computers are already conscious.
If you accept that measure of consciousness, then we do know how to implement consciousness. Obviously it's incomplete, but that's par for all science.
If you don't accept that measure... what measure of consciousness would you accept?
Re: Calculations Suggest It'll Be Impossible to Control a Super-Intelligent AI
Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 3:52 pm
by commonsense
wtf wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 12:51 am
Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:30 pm
My intellectually honest default position is that I don't know whether I am conscious or not.
So if I characterized you as a person utterly devoid of self-awareness, you'd agree, right? Because that's pretty much the conclusion I've come to from my interactions with you.
You cannot make that characterization. Skepdick may either be conscious or not. He just doesn’t know which is the case.
Re: Calculations Suggest It'll Be Impossible to Control a Super-Intelligent AI
Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:32 am
by attofishpi
commonsense wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 3:52 pm
wtf wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 12:51 am
Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:30 pm
My intellectually honest default position is that I don't know whether I am conscious or not.
So if I characterized you as a person utterly devoid of self-awareness, you'd agree, right? Because that's pretty much the conclusion I've come to from my interactions with you.
You cannot make that characterization. Skepdick may either be conscious or not. He just doesn’t know which is the case.
Ooonoo. I've debated this subject matter with both you and Skepdick, I just can't resist.
I know I am concsious, although I cannot empirically prove it to others and am pretty certain Skepdick knows he is conscious and am fairly certain I will be challenged on that.
Re: Calculations Suggest It'll Be Impossible to Control a Super-Intelligent AI
Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:28 am
by Skepdick
attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:32 am
I know I am concsious
wtf wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:16 pm
Nobody knows what consciousness is
Yeah because that directly invokes Meno's paradox!
attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:32 am
and am fairly certain I will be challenged on that.
Yeah, because everyone keeps equivocating what it means "to know".
Everyone keeps moving the damn goalposts on themselves and they can't tell.
Re: Calculations Suggest It'll Be Impossible to Control a Super-Intelligent AI
Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:42 am
by attofishpi
Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:28 am
attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:32 am
I know I am concsious
wtf wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:16 pm
Nobody knows what consciousness is
Yeah because that directly invokes Meno's paradox!
attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:32 am
and am fairly certain I will be challenged on that.
Yeah, because everyone keeps equivocating what it means "to know".
Everyone keeps moving the damn goalposts on themselves and they can't tell.
Well, I haven't been part of the more recent tangent this thread has taken.
Can we agree that when I say I 'know' that it is something to a degree slightly less than with 100% certainty?
Re: Calculations Suggest It'll Be Impossible to Control a Super-Intelligent AI
Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:46 am
by Skepdick
attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:42 am
Well, I haven't been part of the more recent tangent this thread has taken.
Can we agree that when I say I 'know' that it is something to a degree slightly less than with 100% certainty?
Sure. This has nothing to do with certainty.
Can we agree that you can't assert/ascribe a properties to yourself if you don't know what that property IS?
If you know you are conscious, why don't you know if you are spelunkadunking?
Re: Calculations Suggest It'll Be Impossible to Control a Super-Intelligent AI
Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:55 am
by attofishpi
Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:46 am
attofishpi wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:42 am
Well, I haven't been part of the more recent tangent this thread has taken.
Can we agree that when I say I 'know' that it is something to a degree slightly less than with 100% certainty?
Sure. This has nothing to do with certainty.
Can we agree that you can't assert/ascribe a properties to yourself if you don't know what that property IS?
If you know you are conscious, why don't you know if you are spelunkadunking?
I am spelunkadunking, and dinglemuffing too, but obviously not at the same time as that would be impossible. (back to this shit again! lol)
I know what the properties of consciousness are, btw - (at least some)