Philosophy Now Forum

VVilliam wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:27 pm

commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:54 pm

VVilliam wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:07 am

Are you claiming that the science process cannot be used in relation to one's subjective experience?

I suppose one can apply science to an experience like seeing the sun come up every day, but for an experience like seeing a dead grandparent, no.

Then you would want to use things which other scientists could also use, rather than want to see things which others would likely not.

Exactly.

commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:35 pm

VVilliam wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:27 pm

commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:54 pm

I suppose one can apply science to an experience like seeing the sun come up every day, but for an experience like seeing a dead grandparent, no.

Then you would want to use things which other scientists could also use, rather than want to see things which others would likely not.

Exactly.

So we have narrowed down the materials you could use...in relation to subjective experiences which can be recorded [notes etc] by any who have these and then can compare said notes etc...

VVilliam wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:50 pm

commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:35 pm

VVilliam wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:27 pm

Then you would want to use things which other scientists could also use, rather than want to see things which others would likely not.

Exactly.

So we have narrowed down the materials you could use...in relation to subjective experiences which can be recorded [notes etc] by any who have these and then can compare said notes etc...

But what is the question I should try to answer? Whether the universe was created or not? Whether there are multiple universes or not? I know what tools I’d use but not what to use them on in this situation.

commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:00 pm

VVilliam wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:50 pm

commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:35 pm

Exactly.

So we have narrowed down the materials you could use...in relation to subjective experiences which can be recorded [notes etc] by any who have these and then can compare said notes etc...

But what is the question I should try to answer? Whether the universe was created or not?

IF the universe was created THEN...we must exist within some type of Simulated Reality.

Are we able to identify possible evidence which scientific research has uncovered within this universe which could point to the possibility we do actually exist within a creation?

Whether there are multiple universes or not?

No. Stick with the one you are having a reality experience of. Thus narrowed down further.

I know what tools I’d use but not what to use them on in this situation.

What tools would you use?

The possibility of possible evidence is no evidence at all.

All I can go on as a scientific tool is the results of many observations made by many scientists.

commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:16 pm The possibility of possible evidence is no evidence at all.

And the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:19 pm

commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:16 pm The possibility of possible evidence is no evidence at all.

And the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Of course! My list of things only addressed VV’s things.

commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:28 pm

Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:19 pm

commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:16 pm The possibility of possible evidence is no evidence at all.

And the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Of course! My list of things only addressed VV’s things.

We’re left after all with the absence of evidence that we are living in a created universe and also the absence of evidence that we are not. This must be hog heaven for skeptics.

VVilliam wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:06 pm Are we able to identify possible evidence which scientific research has uncovered within this universe which could point to the possibility we do actually exist within a creation?

Sure. You could make the argument that the speed limits of our physics laws and the relativistic effects we observe at such high speeds are the product of round-off errors in computation.

Digital computers can't do infinite stuff and so there's always going to be discontinuities/imprecision at the extremes.

But of course, we are assuming that the simulation is digital.

If we exist in a real or a hyper computer, then this approach won't work, and I can't tell you what will because I have absolutely no intuition for how a real or a hyper computer would work and how I might try to exploit it.

commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:34 pm We’re left after all with the absence of evidence that we are living in a created universe and also the absence of evidence that we are not. This must be hog heaven for skeptics.

As per my post above, some might say that the discontinuities/uncertainties at quantum scale, or the speed limits of light and relativistic effects at large scale are imprecision/round off errors of the underlying architecture.

commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:34 pm

commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:28 pm

Skepdick wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:19 pm
And the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Of course! My list of things only addressed VV’s things.

We’re left after all with the absence of evidence that we are living in a created universe and also the absence of evidence that we are not. This must be hog heaven for skeptics.

I have been suggesting that intelligent subjective experiencee [you the intelligent subject] devise ways in which you can find which you can at least subjectively verify as evidence.

You cannot force other scientists to do the same thing and thus have a means to then compare notes.

But at least you can do so for yourself [if you could think of ways in which to do so.]

So only in that way is there absence of scientifically useful evidence. If individual scientists are not looking for it, therefore it is less likely to be found/discovered [if something is not being looked for] . The evidence remains 'absent' because of this.

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:31 pm Yes, you could communicate with the individual by any means you wish (via a "burning bush," for example). However, that doesn't shed any light on the mystery of what the "eye" of your mind (your "I am-ness") actually looks like within the subjective “arena” where you create and interact with your dreams.

In other words, if you created a mirror out of your dream substances, looking into it with the eye of your mind, what would you see?

VVilliam wrote: ↑Thu Feb 25, 2021 6:19 am Whatever I wished to place upon the mirror.

The whole point of the mirror in the "thought experiment" is that it behaves like a normal mirror.  So what you are saying would be the metaphorical equivalent of throwing a blanket over a mirror in order to avoid seeing yourself.

Are you implying that the "I" of which you speak...

(or whatever it is that can see, touch, hear, smell, and taste the simulations [dreams] it creates)

...has no form whatsoever?

If so, then in opposition to that, I suggest that whatever it is that sits at the throne of our consciousness within the inner context of our mind, it is our true, ultimate, and eternal form - a form that will be revealed to us at the moment of death.

Indeed, I suggest that if we could truly see an image reflecting back at us in that "dream mirror," then we would be witnessing something that looks like (in a familial way) whatever it is that God looks like.

VVilliam wrote: ↑Thu Feb 25, 2021 6:19 am I could make myself appear as some type of entity I suppose...if I thought it would help the individual. But the fact of the matter is that [in the case of your particular analogy] the creator of the dream is indeed dreaming and thus is "that blob of snoring/gas-passing flesh, drooling on a pillow in a darkened bedroom" but what of that?

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:31 pm No. The creator of the dream is not that gas-passing blob of snoring flesh, drooling on a pillow (indeed, that's just a human shaped arrangement of quantum particles). The actual form of the creator of the dream would be whatever it is you see when you look into that dream mirror.

VVilliam wrote: ↑Thu Feb 25, 2021 6:19 am I have a recollection of a dream I had recently where a mirror was involved but I saw no image reflected...

Clearly, at this limited ("embryonic") stage of our existence, it is impossible for us to create a real and working mirror in our mind, hence my "thought experiment" in which we can.

So come on now, VVilliam, although it may sound crazy, I don't think it's that difficult to understand what I was proposing regarding the ontological status of, again, whatever it is that sits at the throne of our consciousness.

VVilliam wrote: ↑Thu Feb 25, 2021 6:19 am ...the lucid dream analogy might not be the best one to use...

I have more.   I invite you to explore the more than 100 drawings and illustrations I created and uploaded to my website: http://www.theultimateseeds.com/

Or, you can have a look at a short (7.5 min) excerpt from a video lecture series I created back in the 90s which aired on public access television for around 7 years in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Here's the YouTube link: https://youtu.be/bVbpHy4nncA

In the meantime, what analogy would you use?  Please describe it in detail.

DPMartin wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:19 pm you're still way out there in la la land.

VVilliam wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:25 pm Take a good look at our collective situation in relation to the planet we are on and its position relative to the rest of the 'landscape' and then repeat after me;

"Way out there in la la land"

Do you see the irony?

All humans are basically sleepwalking through life, and most (not all) are simply not conscious enough to experience a visceral understanding of how utterly strange it is that we are magnetically adhered to a sphere that is not only moving laterally through space at approximately 67,000 mph,...

...but also spins gigantic oceans and huge human metropolises - around and around (topsy-turvy) in a rotisserie cycle that only takes a mere 24 hours to complete.

And the point is that if people such as DPMartin are oblivious to the fact that we are all already deeply immersed in "la la land," then I'm afraid that the irony will be lost on them due to the depth and degree of their somnambulism.
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The Universe could NOT have been possibly 'created'.

Therefore, there is NO 'then ...'.

This can be verified as True, Right, and Correct by BOTH, so called, "scientists" AND "christians" alike, as this is what is stipulated in the books of both of their choosing. That is; those books which they both BELIEVE paint a true and accurate picture of 'things', and which they both use for EVIDENCE and/or PROVE.

SEE, what I say and CLAIM throughout this forum can be, and WILL be, PROVEN absolutely and irrefutably True, Right, and/or Correct through, with, or by, 'empirical' and 'logically reasoned' evidence and proof.

The One and ONLY, infinite AND eternal, Universe is 'in Creation'.

And thus, there is a NOW.

seeds wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:48 pm

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:31 pm Yes, you could communicate with the individual by any means you wish (via a "burning bush," for example). However, that doesn't shed any light on the mystery of what the "eye" of your mind (your "I am-ness") actually looks like within the subjective “arena” where you create and interact with your dreams.

In other words, if you created a mirror out of your dream substances, looking into it with the eye of your mind, what would you see?

VVilliam wrote: ↑Thu Feb 25, 2021 6:19 am Whatever I wished to place upon the mirror.

The whole point of the mirror in the "thought experiment" is that it behaves like a normal mirror.  So what you are saying would be the metaphorical equivalent of throwing a blanket over a mirror in order to avoid seeing yourself.

It may be. It also may be that I have no image of myself in which to reflect back upon the mirror.

Are you implying that the "I" of which you speak...

(or whatever it is that can see, touch, hear, smell, and taste the simulations [dreams] it creates)

...has no form whatsoever?

No. Not really.
I am saying that I can have any shape and form I wanted to have, and would feel that form as a real thing, [from my perspective as an 'other'] and that form will be non visible to anyone else. Even the dream-mirror would not see the form to reflect it, because I myself do not see it. I only feel it.

If so, then in opposition to that, I suggest that whatever it is that sits at the throne of our consciousness within the inner context of our mind, it is our true, ultimate, and eternal form - a form that will be revealed to us at the moment of death.

What "moment of death" would that be, if you are still alive to see it? One could easily enough seamlessly slip from the one reality experience to the next, barely noticing the transition while clearly noticing the differences of the 'one' from the 'other'.

Indeed, I suggest that if we could truly see an image reflecting back at us in that "dream mirror," then we would be witnessing something that looks like (in a familial way) whatever it is that God looks like.

The Creator does not 'look like' anything. So yes. In my case I would not see what The Creator looks like.

VVilliam wrote: ↑Thu Feb 25, 2021 6:19 am I could make myself appear as some type of entity I suppose...if I thought it would help the individual. But the fact of the matter is that [in the case of your particular analogy] the creator of the dream is indeed dreaming and thus is "that blob of snoring/gas-passing flesh, drooling on a pillow in a darkened bedroom" but what of that?

seeds wrote: ↑Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:31 pm No. The creator of the dream is not that gas-passing blob of snoring flesh, drooling on a pillow (indeed, that's just a human shaped arrangement of quantum particles). The actual form of the creator of the dream would be whatever it is you see when you look into that dream mirror.

VVilliam wrote: ↑Thu Feb 25, 2021 6:19 am I have a recollection of a dream I had recently where a mirror was involved but I saw no image reflected...

Clearly, at this limited ("embryonic") stage of our existence, it is impossible for us to create a real and working mirror in our mind, hence my "thought experiment" in which we can.

An interesting statement.

So come on now, VVilliam, although it may sound crazy, I don't think it's that difficult to understand what I was proposing regarding the ontological status of, again, whatever it is that sits at the throne of our consciousness.

I see that I did not misunderstand you seeds. I simply told you what I saw reflected back at me in that thought experiment dream mirror.
You seem unable to accept my answer on the grounds that you appear to believe that everyone must have an image of themselves sitting at the throne of our individuate consciousness [the dream mirror reveals].

I am simply saying that this is not the case with me, since you asked.

VVilliam wrote: ↑Thu Feb 25, 2021 6:19 am ...the lucid dream analogy might not be the best one to use...

I have more.   I invite you to explore the more than 100 drawings and illustrations I created and uploaded to my website: http://www.theultimateseeds.com/

Would you say that the image below has something to do with how you see this inner emperor of your consciousness?

Or, you can have a look at a short (7.5 min) excerpt from a video lecture series I created back in the 90s which aired on public access television for around 7 years in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Here's the YouTube link: https://youtu.be/bVbpHy4nncA

In the meantime, what analogy would you use?  Please describe it in detail.

Detail? That would take pages of script...so here is a link in return. It is an interactive place, so feel free to join the conversation once you have looked around and get the gist...Around The Camp Fire [Relationships - how are they built?]

DPMartin wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:19 pm you're still way out there in la la land.

VVilliam wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:25 pm Take a good look at our collective situation in relation to the planet we are on and its position relative to the rest of the 'landscape' and then repeat after me;

"Way out there in la la land"

Do you see the irony?

All humans are basically sleepwalking through life, and most (not all) are simply not conscious enough to experience a visceral understanding of how utterly strange it is that we are magnetically adhered to a sphere that is not only moving laterally through space at approximately 67,000 mph,...

...but also spins gigantic oceans and huge human metropolises - around and around (topsy-turvy) in a rotisserie cycle that only takes a mere 24 hours to complete.

And the point is that if people such as DPMartin are oblivious to the fact that we are all already deeply immersed in "la la land," then I'm afraid that the irony will be lost on them due to the depth and degree of their somnambulism.

Perhaps then, those who know can show the way...here is my reply...in song form...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df3Zn1V ... e=youtu.be

seeds wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:48 pm All humans are basically sleepwalking through life, and most (not all) are simply not conscious enough to experience a visceral understanding of how utterly strange it is that we are magnetically adhered to a sphere that is not only moving laterally through space at approximately 67,000 mph,...

...but also spins gigantic oceans and huge human metropolises - around and around (topsy-turvy) in a rotisserie cycle that only takes a mere 24 hours to complete.

And the point is that if people such as DPMartin are oblivious to the fact that we are all already deeply immersed in "la la land," then I'm afraid that the irony will be lost on them due to the depth and degree of their somnambulism.

VVilliam wrote: ↑Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:26 pm Perhaps then, those who know can show the way...here is my reply...in song form...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df3Zn1V ... e=youtu.be

Nice.

Assuming that is you in the video, you look like an old hippie like me.

Also, your website appears to be a good place for friendly (metaphysical) chats.

Well done, VVilliam.

(Continued in next post)
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