Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:00 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:39 am
Why try to invent the wheel?? I believe it is most efficient to rely on the arguments of notable genius philosophers but first one must convinced the arguments are valid.
In addition one can prop up those arguments one think is not sufficient for one's purpose.
It's not trying to reinvent the wheel. Rather, in my view, the vast majority of philosophers have made ridiculous claims much of the time, often enough via ridiculous argumentation--and too often via rather idiotic and/or incoherent argumentation and frequently very poor writing. As I said, even where I'm a big fan of someone--Russell is easily #1 for me, I'd say he had things pretty screwed up at least 50% of the time. There are plenty of philosophers, especially in the continental tradition, where I have serious issues with literally every single sentence they uttered. A good example is Heidegger.
Given that that's my opinion, why would I be deferring to someone else or suggesting allegiance to anyone?
It's important to remember the "two laws of philosophy:"
(1) For every philosopher, there is an equal and opposite philosopher.
(2) They're both wrong.
Obviously that's a joke, but in a way not really.
I am a very BIG fan of Kant, but I don't agree with every of his philosophical views. Kant
on the fringe is a deist of a kind, and I am not.
But what is critical here is all philosophers has a specific core philosophical stance, i.e. where he is either,
- 1. Philosophical Realist [PR] or
2. Philosophical Anti-realist [PaR]
where all his other
main philosophical views are hinged upon.
Note my emphasis on 'main' and not their secondary views.
Philosophical Realism in this case refer to
absolute mind-independence.
What we have of reality is ALL-there-is and this ALL-there-is is reducible to it ultimate units for both
PRs and
PaRs.
The difference is the PRs believe in the
substance theory as in Aristotle's
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substance_theory
as existing by itself, i.e. a thing-in-itself independent of all human conditions.
Those who are PaRs believe otherwise, i.e. the ultimate unit of reality is linked with human minds.
The point here is,
Is Reality [other than mental things] independent or linked with human-minds.
I thought I answered this already, but as a demonstration of what to do when one thinks this in the context of a need for clarification, I'll answer again:
Most of it is independent of minds (when I talk of minds, by the way, I don't limit it to humans).
But some things are obviously related to minds in some way despite being objective. For example, computers wouldn't exist if we didn't have the ideas required for them. So they're "mind-dependent" in the sense that minds were necessary for them to exist--minds were a precondition for them, but once we create them, they're mind-independent.
If every creature with a mind suddenly popped out of existence this very moment, computers would still exist obviously.
It is good you clarify further.
When you stated, re minds you don't limit to humans, do you mean minds of other animals, plants?
If yes, such a point this is unnecessary.
If you believe there are other minds other than humans, other animals, plants and organism, you are entering la la land and the supernatural. Is this the case with you?
Computers are created by minds.
In the conventional sense, yes, the completed computer is physically independent of human minds and the human self. So the Philosophical Realists is confined to the conventional.
But for the philosophical anti-realist [Kantian], the computer is ultimately not independent of the human minds since logical the human minds are the preconditions of its reality.
- 1. If ALL humans are extinct, would the 'computer' still exists?
2. It is humans collectively who sustain the reality and terms of what is a computer.
3. If ALL humans are extinct, then there are no humans to sustain 2, therefore there would be no computer-as-it-is-humanly-is.
4. According to the Kantian PaRs, there is no such thing as a computer-in-itself, the reality is there is only a computer-by-humans-selves.
Thus if no humans at all, there is no computers-by-humans-selves.
The above is very fundamental and contentious between PRs and PaRs.
If you insist you are right, prove to me a computer-in-itself or a thing-in-itself exists by itself.
Yes. at least a handful of times now I've explicitly told you that I'm a realist.
But you were very hesitant with the term 'philosophical realist'.
My view is Philosophical Realism is not realistic in the most ultimate sense of reality.
Sure. Whatever that means. You'd have to define the various ways you're using the term "real" there. (The first instance, a la "Philosophical Realism" should be referring to the view that there are mind-independent things, but your other two instances in the sentence above can't be using the term in the same way.)
Note my explanations above.
What is really "real" to the Kantian PaRs is that of Empirical Realism, i.e.
WYSIWYG as real,
'What You See [observed] Is What You Get' as real and upon verifying and justifying empirically and philosophically within a credible FSK.
What is really 'real' to the philosophical realist is merely
an assumption of an existing thing-in-itself which is ultimately an illusion, thus begging the question.