Philosophy Now Forum

Age wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:21 am [

So, will you show with explanations and/or with evidence WHY what I said here is "wrong on ALL counts"?

Not likely because you are trolling, or too stupid to get anything I say.

If you give any kind of decent answer to the post just above, I might reconsider, but others have already chastised you for your stupid commets and I do not want to be repeating their sound views.

Regards
DL

Age wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:41 am
What actual definition to give and use to the words 'atheism' and 'atheist'?

Stick with mine as things are getting weird otherwise.

Since following an ideology is a prerequisite of religion, atheism can be considered a religion, since atheists draws on philosophical ideologies to guide ideas, behaviors, and actions, like that of any religion. That is why atheist churches are called atheist churches.

--------------

Atheists Are Sometimes More Religious Than Christians
A new study shows how poorly we understand the beliefs of people who identify as atheist, agnostic, or nothing in particular.

Americans are deeply religious people—and atheists are no exception. Western Europeans are deeply secular people—and Christians are no exception.

These twin statements are generalizations, but they capture the essence of a fascinating finding in a new study about Christian identity in Western Europe. By surveying almost 25,000 people in 15 countries in the region, and comparing the results with data previously gathered in the U.S., the Pew Research Center discovered three things.

First, researchers confirmed the widely known fact that, overall, Americans are much more religious than Western Europeans. They gauged religious commitment using standard questions, including “Do you believe in God with absolute certainty?” and “Do you pray daily?”

Second, the researchers found that American “nones”—those who identify as atheist, agnostic, or nothing in particular—are more religious than European nones. The notion that religiously unaffiliated people can be religious at all may seem contradictory, but if you disaffiliate from organized religion it does not necessarily mean you’ve sworn off belief in God, say, or prayer.

The third finding reported in the study is by far the most striking. As it turns out, “American ‘nones’ are as religious as—or even more religious than—Christians in several European countries, including France, Germany, and the U.K.”

“That was a surprise,” Neha Sahgal, the lead researcher on the study, told me. “That’s the comparison that’s fascinating to me.” She highlighted the fact that whereas only 23 percent of European Christians say they believe in God with absolute certainty, 27 percent of American nones say this.

America is a country so suffused with faith that religious attributes abound even among the secular. Consider the rise of “atheist churches,” which cater to Americans who have lost faith in supernatural deities but still crave community, enjoy singing with others, and want to think deeply about morality. It’s religion, minus all the God stuff. This is a phenomenon spreading across the country, from the Seattle Atheist Church to the North Texas Church of Freethought. The Oasis Network, which brings together non-believers to sing and learn every Sunday morning, has affiliates in nine U.S. cities.

Last month, almost 1,000 people streamed into a [Atheist] church in San Francisco for an unprecedented event billed as “Beyoncé Mass.” Most were people of color and members of the LGBTQ community. Many were secular. They used Queen Bey’s songs, which are replete with religious symbolism, as the basis for a communal celebration—one that had all the trappings of a religious service. That seemed completely fitting to some, including one reverend who said, “Beyoncé is a better theologian than many of the pastors and priests in our church today.”
https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...t ... ns/560936/

Regards
DL

Age wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:17 am But now will you provide examples of how you discriminate "among" human beings, and this still be 'just'?

I could. But another round of gratuitous gainsaying is not what I have planned for myself. I'll decline.

Age wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:55 am
Why do you even put yourselves in positions of having 'opponents'.

For the same reason you do. To determine who has the fittest mind.

To find out if you should be trying to learn of the issue or to teach on it.

There are basically only 3 reasons people post here. Preach, teach or learn.

That or just waste time because some are bored and have no real purpose or challenge in their life.

Regards
DL

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:12 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:18 am

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:39 pm It is very weird when theists or other religious people want to claim that non-theists are religious about atheism. Not only is it absurd, but it's so obviously contrived. And what purpose does it serve? What is someone trying to propose with such nonsense? That their OWN reliance on religion is reasonable because EVERYBODY is religious whether they believe themselves to be or not? Come on... what the fuck?! How does a brain even tolerate itself making up such distorted crap and then turning it into claims on a philosophy forum? There's just too much fucking insanity! Really!!

It is my view that they are subconsciously aware that faith and religion are inherently absurd. This results in the conscious tar-brushing of their opponents so as to bring them down to the same level of scared ignorance that evokes feelings of faith in themselves.
In this way they hope to level the playing field in the hope of making atheists look as absurd as they are.
It's a sort of - you are no better than me ploy.

That makes perfect sense... as do the other comments by you and Dubious about the infectious virus nature of theism, and how that mental virus may respond when it does not succeed in infecting someone.

So, ATTENTION INSANE RELIGIOUS PEOPLE: You really need to get a grip on how screwed up you are, and stop spreading your disease to the rest of humankind. Enjoy it in the privacy of your own home, or with those who want to share it -- otherwise, stop making up stupid crap that non-theists have to wade through. It's YOUR trip... not the truth of the entire Universe. And if you're really not intelligent enough to GET THAT, you shouldn't be on a philosophy forum!

Yes, the infected should self isolate until they feel better!!

Age wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:55 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:18 am

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:39 pm
It is very weird when theists or other religious people want to claim that non-theists are religious about atheism. Not only is it absurd, but it's so obviously contrived. And what purpose does it serve? What is someone trying to propose with such nonsense? That their OWN reliance on religion is reasonable because EVERYBODY is religious whether they believe themselves to be or not? Come on... what the fuck?! How does a brain even tolerate itself making up such distorted crap and then turning it into claims on a philosophy forum? There's just too much fucking insanity! Really!!

It is my view that they are subconsciously aware that faith and religion are inherently absurd. This results in the conscious tar-brushing of their opponents so as to bring them down to the same level of scared ignorance that evokes feelings of faith in themselves.

Why do you even put yourselves in positions of having 'opponents'.

If all of you did not, then there would not be these incessant bickering and never resolved disagreements and fighting among yourselves that all of you are creating between yourselves.

Since you declared and claimed that you are an 'atheist', in "some places", then what does being an 'atheist' actually entail and mean exactly?

It entails no belief.
Why are you incapable of understanding that?
Why bring me down to your level?

Or in other words, how do you define the word 'atheist'?

The absence of a belief in god, or gods.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:18 am In this way they hope to level the playing field in the hope of making atheists look as absurd as they are.
It's a sort of - you are no better than me ploy.

Well, to me, ALL of 'you', adult human beings, are no better than each other. EVERY time 'you' put yourselves into some 'ist' catergory and/or into some 'ist' separated group, which follows some 'ism' ideology or belief, then you are being no better than "another one" who does that.

Again, you are not following the thread.
I would not be an atheist, if the mental virus theism did not exist.
I'm someone who is not infected.
This is not rocket science.

Is it not true that the belief in God not existing can be just as strong as the belief in God existing?

weasel words. Atheism does not involve a belief.
What a strangled phrase of word salad you have to say to try and attribute me with a belief!! LOL
Belief is the problem.
My view is that things taken as true should not be related to choices. How stupid would I appear if I simply CHOSE to belief in a thing ,as if that were true. I want to belief in unicorns - so they exist. I want to belief in god so he exists.
Only a moron would go down that route.

From my perspective, none of 'you' are any better than "another". To me, you are ALL the same.

That is a problem you have.
your failure to draw a distinction is not a very good working strategy for life.

But I do tend to look at and see things very differently, then most people do.

Oh, any by the way, what does you "not believing in God" actually mean?

I don't know, depends on what you are defining as god today. And that is exactly why it does not involve me in a specific or definable belief.
See how that works?
Do YOU believe in a god? yes or no please

You say that this is what you do, so this should be a relatively very simple thing for you to explain, logically and reasonably, correct?

See above.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:42 pm

Yes, the infected should self isolate until they feel better!!

The thing is, with false negative test that are reported, people can be infected without knowing it.

Err on the side of caution should be the operative thinking.

If not, the so called uninfected might either get infected or infect others.

They may feel fine, but might not be fine.

Regards
DL

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:39 am…

I was making a point that people who do not understand that their theist trip is not a Universal truth or reality for all, are really not intelligent enough to discuss it truthfully on a philosophy forum. Discussing religion is fun... but this isn't a church... and it would seem that people truly interested in philosophy (as compared to just preaching their beliefs to insist that everyone else believe the glory of their supreme view) would be focused INSTEAD on questioning ALL beliefs/views, including their own. If they're not able to be that open-minded and logical and honest, then they're really too intoxicated to reasonably discuss philosophy.

I support everyone to believe and practice whatever works for them. That's different from spreading toxic mental viruses to humankind, which is what I think closed-minded religion does (and what we were talking about, which I was responding to). If we are aware enough to be our own gatekeepers... as opposed to pawns/soldiers of conditioned thinking and agendas and religions... then we can offer more clarity and intelligence for the good of all humankind, rather than more insane muck to wade through and fight over.

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:15 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:42 pm

Yes, the infected should self isolate until they feel better!!

The thing is, with false negative test that are reported, people can be infected without knowing it.

Err on the side of caution should be the operative thinking.

If not, the so called uninfected might either get infected or infect others.

They may feel fine, but might not be fine.

Regards
DL

Burn them all - just to be sure.

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:37 pm

Age wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:15 am

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:15 pm

That is rather obvious, but ----

Every law has a compulsion to discriminate negatively against a certain sub-group of our society.

That could be the murderer demographic of rapist for two examples.

But how is that 'just'?

Is ABSOLUTELY EVERY one who has been discriminated against negatively done what they have been separated and discriminated into, and against?

Also, 'laws' themselves are NOT 'just' at all. Laws are made to punish, and that is obviously NOT 'just' at all.

I asked is it possible to discriminate, and it be 'just'?

Discriminating negatively against one human being for any reason is obviously NOT 'just'.

Let's look at that last.

Let's say you get home and some rapist is having his way with your wife or daughter.

Okay. I get home and there is a human being who is having their way with my partner or daughter.

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:37 pm Is it just for you to not discriminate negatively against him?

What do you mean by "Is it just for me ..."?

What I do, (without it being "just for me" necessarily), is to NOT discriminate negatively against that male or female human being.

I ALREADY KNOW WHY ALL human beings think the way they do and do what they do. Therefore, I Truly UNDERSTAND what is going on here.

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:37 pm If you discriminate positively, what does that look like?

But I would NOT discriminate positively?

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:37 pm Will you offer him a sweat towel and help him hold your wife down, or will you discriminate negatively and punish him somehow?

I will NOT do either.

Also, why only ask if I would hold my wife down? Why not my daughter?

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:37 pm Recant your last or be seen for an immoral piece of garbage who is not fit to waste good air on.

Regards
DL

But WHY "should" I recant it? Are you not yet aware of how to discriminate without being necessarily 'negatively against' "another" human being?

Also, do NOT tell me what to do, especially considering it is YOU who has absolutely NO idea what it is that I am actually saying and meaning here.

What I suggest you do is to START asking me clarifying questions about what I am actually saying and meaning BEFORE you make any assumptions at all.

If you STOP making the continual ASSUMPTIONS that you are here, then you may just start FULLY understanding what I am saying and meaning here.

Oh, and by the way, you are really living up to your name here, that is: by and from your own distorted perspective of being the so called "greatest".

If ANY human being is doing some thing that you dislike or hate, then it is because of A REASON. Until you grasp and understand THAT REASON, then you will continue to BELIEVE that some, or all, people are "lesser" than you are, and that you are the "greatest", and therefore "others" will always remain to you "less than" and some will always just be an "immoral piece of garbage", like you believe 'I' am to 'you'.

I am NOT recanting "my last" so 'Discriminating negatively against one human being for any reason is obviously NOT 'just'.

I thought the words 'negatively' and 'against' in relation to another HUMAN BEING would have made this VERY CLEAR that it is NOT 'just' at all. But each to their own.

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:42 pm

Age wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:21 am [

So, will you show with explanations and/or with evidence WHY what I said here is "wrong on ALL counts"?

Not likely because you are trolling, or too stupid to get anything I say.

I wonder some times if some people realize that they are in a 'philosophy' forum and not any other forum.

If you are incapable of being able to back up and support your claims with at least some thing, then I suggest it is better to refrain from making the claim in the first place.

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:42 pm If you give any kind of decent answer to the post just above, I might reconsider, but others have already chastised you for your stupid commets and I do not want to be repeating their sound views.

Regards
DL

Okay. So you are completely incapable.

I, however, have already explained. So, now I wait patiently for challenges and/or clarifying questions.

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:47 pm

Age wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:41 am
What actual definition to give and use to the words 'atheism' and 'atheist'?

Stick with mine as things are getting weird otherwise.

Since following an ideology is a prerequisite of religion, atheism can be considered a religion, since atheists draws on philosophical ideologies to guide ideas, behaviors, and actions, like that of any religion. That is why atheist churches are called atheist churches.

But that has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING at all to do with any definition of the words 'atheist' and 'atheism' that I have ever seen in any dictionary.

So, if you want to maintain this definition for those two words, then so be it. But expect to keep getting the backlash that 'you' are.

Oh, and by the way, you are providing more of an explanation for your own beliefs here, rather than providing a definition for the words 'atheist' and 'atheism'

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:47 pm --------------

Atheists Are Sometimes More Religious Than Christians

Yes I am aware of this.

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:47 pm A new study shows how poorly we understand the beliefs of people who identify as atheist, agnostic, or nothing in particular.

Americans are deeply religious people—and atheists are no exception. Western Europeans are deeply secular people—and Christians are no exception.

These twin statements are generalizations, but they capture the essence of a fascinating finding in a new study about Christian identity in Western Europe. By surveying almost 25,000 people in 15 countries in the region, and comparing the results with data previously gathered in the U.S., the Pew Research Center discovered three things.

First, researchers confirmed the widely known fact that, overall, Americans are much more religious than Western Europeans. They gauged religious commitment using standard questions, including “Do you believe in God with absolute certainty?” and “Do you pray daily?”

Second, the researchers found that American “nones”—those who identify as atheist, agnostic, or nothing in particular—are more religious than European nones. The notion that religiously unaffiliated people can be religious at all may seem contradictory, but if you disaffiliate from organized religion it does not necessarily mean you’ve sworn off belief in God, say, or prayer.

The third finding reported in the study is by far the most striking. As it turns out, “American ‘nones’ are as religious as—or even more religious than—Christians in several European countries, including France, Germany, and the U.K.”

“That was a surprise,” Neha Sahgal, the lead researcher on the study, told me. “That’s the comparison that’s fascinating to me.” She highlighted the fact that whereas only 23 percent of European Christians say they believe in God with absolute certainty, 27 percent of American nones say this.

America is a country so suffused with faith that religious attributes abound even among the secular. Consider the rise of “atheist churches,” which cater to Americans who have lost faith in supernatural deities but still crave community, enjoy singing with others, and want to think deeply about morality. It’s religion, minus all the God stuff. This is a phenomenon spreading across the country, from the Seattle Atheist Church to the North Texas Church of Freethought. The Oasis Network, which brings together non-believers to sing and learn every Sunday morning, has affiliates in nine U.S. cities.

Last month, almost 1,000 people streamed into a [Atheist] church in San Francisco for an unprecedented event billed as “Beyoncé Mass.” Most were people of color and members of the LGBTQ community. Many were secular. They used Queen Bey’s songs, which are replete with religious symbolism, as the basis for a communal celebration—one that had all the trappings of a religious service. That seemed completely fitting to some, including one reverend who said, “Beyoncé is a better theologian than many of the pastors and priests in our church today.”
https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...t ... ns/560936/

Regards
DL

Like some one else has pointed out. This just sounds like a whole load of rubbish.

To me, this is just what some one has "conveniently found", which just "coincidentally" backs up and supports their previously held beliefs and/or assumptions anyway.

There are just way to many variables at play here for any of this to be able to be substantiated fully.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:49 pm

Age wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:17 am But now will you provide examples of how you discriminate "among" human beings, and this still be 'just'?

I could. But another round of gratuitous gainsaying is not what I have planned for myself. I'll decline.

It is not necessary now anyway. I have worked out some examples that you may have been thinking of.

By the way, why say some thing that you can not or will not back up and support with at least something anyway?

I was truly interested if it was possible to discriminate human beings and it could still be 'just'. With you help when you used the word 'among' instead of 'against', then I could see that it was. I then found some examples on my own were it is possible to discriminate between human beings and it still be 'just'. Why you would not just provide some examples yourself instead of saying what you have here is your choice. But I was just asking for some help in seeing and learning things from "another's" perspective.

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:55 pm

Age wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:55 am
Why do you even put yourselves in positions of having 'opponents'.

For the same reason you do.

But I do NOT do this.

Remember it is 'you' who has and hold BELIEFS, and it is 'you' who give yourselves labels like 'theist', 'atheist', among the other thousands of other labels that 'you', human beings, place on yourselves/each other. I do NOT do this also. Therefore, I am in NO position of having a so called "opponent".

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:55 pm To determine who has the fittest mind.

LOL Yet is you human beings who are still fighting over what the 'mind' is exactly and still trying to work out what 'it' is exactly.

I will tell you now, there is NOT one human being who has a so called "fitter mind" than another.

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:55 pm To find out if you should be trying to learn of the issue or to teach on it.

To BELIEVE that one KNOWS enough FULLY on any subject is just BLIND ignorance.

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:55 pm There are basically only 3 reasons people post here. Preach, teach or learn.

Well now there is a fourth reason.

Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:55 pm That or just waste time because some are bored and have no real purpose or challenge in their life.

Regards
DL

Well you have learned something new today.

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:42 pm

Lacewing wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:12 am

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:18 am
It is my view that they are subconsciously aware that faith and religion are inherently absurd. This results in the conscious tar-brushing of their opponents so as to bring them down to the same level of scared ignorance that evokes feelings of faith in themselves.
In this way they hope to level the playing field in the hope of making atheists look as absurd as they are.
It's a sort of - you are no better than me ploy.

That makes perfect sense... as do the other comments by you and Dubious about the infectious virus nature of theism, and how that mental virus may respond when it does not succeed in infecting someone.

So, ATTENTION INSANE RELIGIOUS PEOPLE: You really need to get a grip on how screwed up you are, and stop spreading your disease to the rest of humankind. Enjoy it in the privacy of your own home, or with those who want to share it -- otherwise, stop making up stupid crap that non-theists have to wade through. It's YOUR trip... not the truth of the entire Universe. And if you're really not intelligent enough to GET THAT, you shouldn't be on a philosophy forum!

Yes, the infected should self isolate until they feel better!!

If all of those infected with beliefs, just stopped believing things to be true BEFORE they KNOW, then they would not need to isolate until they feel better. They would just BE BETTER, instantly.