WAR... what is it good for?

[Walker]

Since you agree with the passage, perhaps you can answer Nick's questions.

I think he disagrees with the passage.

[Lacewing]

Oh, and see this little snarky shit...

Jeese Louise, are a paranoid?

Let's make it easy for you.

Fuck you. I realize that you're probably trying to save face, but you're not fooling anyone.

Oh, and I see that you still haven't told me WHY you brought this up? Clearly, you're just throwing stuff out there. And now you're trying to get me to talk to Nick about it. I've already gone round and round with Nick and Ken and others about such things.

Are you going to be responsible for what you bring up and answer WHY... or are you going to scuttle into the shadows like a rat?

[Walker]

Oh, and see this little snarky shit...

Jeese Louise, are a paranoid?

Let's make it easy for you.

Fuck you. I realize that you're probably trying to save face, but you're not fooling anyone.

Oh, and I see that you still haven't told me WHY you brought this up? Clearly, you're just throwing stuff out there. And now you're trying to get me to talk to Nick about it. I've already gone round and round with Nick and Ken and others about such things.

Are you going to be responsible for what you bring up and answer WHY... or are you going to scuttle into the shadows like a rat?

“Not everyone on this Earth operates on such dense levels. Just look at the vast range of intelligence and awareness in humans. To me, that says that we don't have to have an attack/war mentality either. So, the fact that many men do, seems worth questioning... and pointing out that we're not as evolved as we might think.”

Dense, check. Attack mentality, check. Lack of evolution, check. Everything checks except we.

Quite an adroit display of misdirection, while ignoring content.

[Walker]

Walker

“Is this problem of violence out there or here? Do you want to solve the problem in the outside world or are you questioning violence itself as it is in you? If you are free of violence in yourself the question is, `How am I to live in a world full of violence, acquisitiveness, greed, envy, brutality? Will I not be destroyed?' That is the inevitable question which is invariably asked. When you ask such a question it seems to me you are not actually living peacefully. If you live peacefully you will have no problem at all. You may be imprisoned because you refuse to join the army or shot because you refuse to fight - but that is not a problem; you will be shot. it is extraordinarily important to understand this.”
- Jiddu Krishnamurti
Freedom From The Known, Chapter 6
(1969)

This isn't so easy.

If Mr Gandhi can protect his sister from rape through non-violent means, then I will be a pacifist.” Simone Weil

I'll stick with Simone on this one. What is so noble about turning the other way while your sister is being raped? On a larger scale what is so noble about hiding when your country is being attacked? Is there such a thing for you as non-violent violent defensive action?

The principle of what J. Krishnamurti is saying, applied to your example:

If your sister is being raped, and you know that stopping it will get you shot, then you will be shot. You will be at peace because you suffered no conflict of thought between idea and action, and you choicelessly did what you had to do.

The root of war is conflict. No conflict, no war, no karma, no rebirth after the samskaras have been burned off, after the turntable’s inertia has wound down.

[Lacewing]

Dense, check. Attack mentality, check. Lack of evolution, check. Everything checks except we.

Quite an adroit display of misdirection, while ignoring content.

Your interpretation of me is meaningless. I am not limited to your ideas. Why don't you apply those judgments to yourself?

[Walker]

Because I'm not delusional, and they're not my assessments. They're simply correlations of your words.

[Lacewing]

Because I'm not delusional, and they're not my assessments. They're simply correlations of your words.

Your dishonesty and ego always spoil our discussions.

[Walker]

Because I'm not delusional, and they're not my assessments. They're simply correlations of your words.

Your dishonesty and ego always spoil our discussions.

If you follow your own advice and apply that judgment to yourself, you just might turn that frown upside down.

When you review, you will agree.

[Walker]

“Let us put it another way. We are always comparing what we are with what we should be. The should-be is a projection of what we think we ought to be. Contradiction exists when there is comparison, not only with something or somebody, but with what you were yesterday, and hence there is conflict between what has been and what is. There is what is only when there is no comparison at all, and to live with what is, is to be peaceful. Then you can give your whole attention without any distraction to what is within yourself - whether it be despair, ugliness, brutality, fear, anxiety, loneliness - and live with it completely; then there is no contradiction and hence no conflict.”

Jiddu Krishnamurti
- Freedom from the Known
Chapter 7

[Lacewing]

“Let us put it another way. We are always comparing what we are with what we should be. The should-be is a projection of what we think we ought to be. Contradiction exists when there is comparison, not only with something or somebody, but with what you were yesterday, and hence there is conflict between what has been and what is. There is what is only when there is no comparison at all, and to live with what is, is to be peaceful. Then you can give your whole attention without any distraction to what is within yourself - whether it be despair, ugliness, brutality, fear, anxiety, loneliness - and live with it completely; then there is no contradiction and hence no conflict.”

Jiddu Krishnamurti
- Freedom from the Known
Chapter 7

Yes, this is true. I have this book too. So why are you posting this here? Are you trying to invalidate my questioning of whether we have to have an attack/war mentality? Do you not see value in contemplating our potential predisposition with lower nature, instead of recognizing greater potential? I think Krishnamurti would honor such a thing.

[Walker]

“Let us put it another way. We are always comparing what we are with what we should be. The should-be is a projection of what we think we ought to be. Contradiction exists when there is comparison, not only with something or somebody, but with what you were yesterday, and hence there is conflict between what has been and what is. There is what is only when there is no comparison at all, and to live with what is, is to be peaceful. Then you can give your whole attention without any distraction to what is within yourself - whether it be despair, ugliness, brutality, fear, anxiety, loneliness - and live with it completely; then there is no contradiction and hence no conflict.”

Jiddu Krishnamurti
- Freedom from the Known
Chapter 7

Yes, this is true. I have this book too. So why are you posting this here? Are you trying to invalidate my questioning of whether we have to have an attack/war mentality? Do you not see value in contemplating our potential predisposition with lower nature, instead of recognizing greater potential? I think Krishnamurti would honor such a thing.

Well, accepting the premise that unconflicted violence is possible and using intellect/memory to determine how, then in discussing war, the dichotomy to resolve that will lead to peace through strength is the processing of incoming violence into conflict-free action, which can be interesting when the missile-launcher is hell-bent on conflict rather than open discussion of content and principles.

“Violence is not merely killing another. It is violence when we use a sharp word, when we make a gesture to brush away a person, when we obey because there is fear. So violence isn't merely organized butchery in the name of God, in the name of society or country. Violence is much more subtle, much deeper, and we are inquiring into the very depths of violence.”
- Freedom From the Known
Chapter 6

[Lacewing]

Well, accepting the premise that unconflicted violence is possible and using intellect/memory to determine how, then in discussing war, the dichotomy to resolve that will lead to peace through strength is the processing of incoming violence into conflict-free action, which can be interesting when the missile-launcher is hell-bent on conflict rather than open discussion of content and principles.

Remove the attack/war mentality/mode, and a broader view with more options/modes becomes possible. Imagine seeing/recognizing BEFORE you're in that limited-option response mode. Transforming energy BEFORE it turns into something you don't want. The attack/war mentality/mode welcomes and incites attack/war. Yes, this is on all levels... not just a physical battlefield (as I've said earlier in this thread).

[Walker]

Well, accepting the premise that unconflicted violence is possible and using intellect/memory to determine how, then in discussing war, the dichotomy to resolve that will lead to peace through strength is the processing of incoming violence into conflict-free action, which can be interesting when the missile-launcher is hell-bent on conflict rather than open discussion of content and principles.

Remove the attack/war mentality/mode, and a broader view with more options/modes becomes possible. Imagine seeing/recognizing BEFORE you're in that limited-option response mode. Transforming energy BEFORE it turns into something you don't want. The attack/war mentality/mode welcomes and incites attack/war. Yes, this is on all levels... not just a physical battlefield (as I've said earlier in this thread).

“BEFORE,” indicates functioning from preconceptions based on the known. Krishnamurti is acknowledging this and looking further.

If you give it a tich of thought, an escarpment looms from what JK stirs up.

Question: Because conflict-free mind, independent of action, indicates peace of mind, then what principle distinguishes psycopath Hannibal Lecter’s peace of mind during violent action, from saintly Ghandi’s peace of mind during non-action?

Answer: Ahimsa, which can be awakened and purified into spontaneity unconflicted with reality, via rationality and perception of timeless causation objectively correlating with reality (timeless being defined in Freedom From the Known as that which exists independent of dualistic thought).

Would you agree with this imaginary and idealized dialogue sans questions, Detente Lacewing, while meeting here at the crossroads before we journey beyond memory?

[Lacewing]

“BEFORE,” indicates functioning from preconceptions based on the known.

"Before" could indicate a lot of things. You appear to be placing certain definitions/limits on it, and assigning that to me. You clearly have no idea how I think.

I'm not interested in talking with you any more right now, Walker. I've cooperated with a bunch of your questions and comments, while you have repeatedly ignored my questions. Maybe when you answer those, I'll entertain more of yours.

[Nick_A]

Walker

“Is this problem of violence out there or here? Do you want to solve the problem in the outside world or are you questioning violence itself as it is in you? If you are free of violence in yourself the question is, `How am I to live in a world full of violence, acquisitiveness, greed, envy, brutality? Will I not be destroyed?' That is the inevitable question which is invariably asked. When you ask such a question it seems to me you are not actually living peacefully. If you live peacefully you will have no problem at all. You may be imprisoned because you refuse to join the army or shot because you refuse to fight - but that is not a problem; you will be shot. it is extraordinarily important to understand this.”
- Jiddu Krishnamurti
Freedom From The Known, Chapter 6
(1969)

This isn't so easy.

If Mr Gandhi can protect his sister from rape through non-violent means, then I will be a pacifist.” Simone Weil

I'll stick with Simone on this one. What is so noble about turning the other way while your sister is being raped? On a larger scale what is so noble about hiding when your country is being attacked? Is there such a thing for you as non-violent violent defensive action?

The principle of what J. Krishnamurti is saying, applied to your example:

If your sister is being raped, and you know that stopping it will get you shot, then you will be shot. You will be at peace because you suffered no conflict of thought between idea and action, and you choicelessly did what you had to do.

The root of war is conflict. No conflict, no war, no karma, no rebirth after the samskaras have been burned off, after the turntable’s inertia has wound down.

The root of war is conflict. The human condition by definition is conflict between our higher and lower natures. To live without conflict is to have transcended the human condition. We deny the quality of consciousness necessary to reconcile this essential conflict so it must continue regardless of the finest speeches. It is the way of the world.