Philosophy Now Forum

Immanuel Can wrote:

thedoc wrote:

Greta wrote:There is an in between option you have not considered - people would still have a choice, but they need clarity about what they were choosing, and that is by no means the case with literally hundreds or more of competing claims.

Are you suggesting that if people had more clarity, they would make better choices? Then why is it that so many make choices in spite of not haveing any clarity?

Well, and I would argue that people DO indeed have a great deal of clarity. After all, what would one wish God to do that He has not done?

You quote from one particular ancient mythical tome amongst hundreds and call that clarity? Your "clarity" comes from the choice to ignore all but one source. On what basis should I choose that source amongst any? Why should I choose any, since every single religious text is rife with hooey?

What we have is the absolute antithesis of clarity.

Edit: typo

Immanuel Can wrote:because that which is known about God is evident within them;

To be fair, I think he forgot to make himself evident to some of us.

So what if the whole Creation displays His design every minute of every day? Moreover, what if He gave to mankind various miracles? What if He gave them His moral laws? What if He gave them prophets and revelations? What if He gave ever human being a conscience that would continually remind them of the good -- and that they were not doing it? And what if He also provided many people who DID know Him and were willing to say so to anyone who would listen? What if, after all that was done, God manifested Himself in human form,

What if all that is a load of rubbish?

because people can prefer to exercise their autonomy by rejecting what they really know to be true.

It would be a brave man who, believing in the God of the Bible, rejected him.

So short of a cosmic display of perpetual fireworks, God has done all that could possibly be done while allowing people any kind of choice at all. And to do more would be to destroy the possibility of choice altogether.

If a cosmic fireworks display would do the trick, would it be that unreasonable to ask him to put one on?

unconcerned that He must judge the world in righteousness, and that they must give account to Him for every word they said against Him

Come now, I'm sure God has more important things to do than read the posts on this forum.

They hate the very idea of God.

I think it's more the thought of looking silly that they hate.

And I warrant you, some will even take this opportunity to make their own plight worse.

That's an unwarranted warrant. By the way, well done for getting "warrant" and "plight" in the same sentence, it's not often you see that.

The truth is that some men and women hate God

A lot of people don't even think about God, it's the idiots who won't stop rattling on about him that they don't like.

How then can we doubt that God could do practically anything,

Surprisingly easily, actually.

Quite simply, mankind is incredibly devious

If there's a design flaw in mankind, who's fault is that?

If you're looking for a fruitless endeavour, Harbal...

No one hates god, Mr Can. In order to hate it, you have to believe it exists.

Greta wrote:What we have is the absolute antithesis of clarity.

You have clarity. Right now. I just told you. I told you what God has said, and what He has done, and I gave it to you in His words. It could not have been clearer.

Now, you may not like what I said. I'm sure you don't, probably. But from this moment forward, you will not be saying to God, "Nobody told me." That won't happen.

Nor will it happen for anyone who had read this strand. They can say, "I heard it, but I refused even to consider it." Or they may say, "I didn't want to know." What they will never be able to say is,"God, You didn't give me a chance to know." Clarity is right now.

Now, you have to decide what to do with that clarity. You can investigate, or you can adopt a position of supercilious indifference and complete disregard for your soul's welfare. That choice is yours, not mine.

But it's a very clear choice, one you're going to make right now.

uwot wrote:If you're looking for a fruitless endeavour, Harbal...

Immanuel Can wrote:disregard for your soul's welfare.

And the funniest part about it is, the man is serious.

Immanuel Can wrote:

Greta wrote:What we have is the absolute antithesis of clarity.

You have clarity. Right now. I just told you. I told you what God has said, and what He has done, and I gave it to you in His words. It could not have been clearer.

Now, you may not like what I said. I'm sure you don't, probably. But from this moment forward, you will not be saying to God, "Nobody told me." That won't happen.

Of course I can't say "nobody told me". Almost everybody has told me at some time or another what I should think. Yet most say different things. Why should I believe your word over that of others? What makes you more credible than others here who rebut your claims?

Greta wrote:Why should I believe your word over that of others? What makes you more credible than others here who rebut your claims?

Not my word. What you do with my word has no consequences.

I didn't write John 3:18. Jesus said...

"He who believes in [Me] is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the unique Son of God."

Go and read John 3 for yourself, and you'll see. All that matters, and all that will ever matter, is what you do with God's Word, the Word sent you in His Son.

Believe Him, or choose to walk away from Him. God allows you that freedom. But from now on, you can't imagine you haven't chosen. You know you have.

Immanuel Can wrote:

Greta wrote:Why should I believe your word over that of others? What makes you more credible than others here who rebut your claims?

Not my word. What you do with my word has no consequences.

I didn't write John 3:18. Jesus said...

"He who believes in [Me] is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the unique Son of God."

Why should I believe the Bible over all of the competing claims?

Immanuel Can wrote:

Greta wrote:What we have is the absolute antithesis of clarity.

You have clarity. Right now. I just told you. I told you what God has said, and what He has done, and I gave it to you in His words. It could not have been clearer.

Unfortunately it only applies to his "chosen people" and they chose not to.

Immanuel Can wrote:

thedoc wrote:

Greta wrote:There is an in between option you have not considered - people would still have a choice, but they need clarity about what they were choosing, and that is by no means the case with literally hundreds or more of competing claims.

Are you suggesting that if people had more clarity, they would make better choices? Then why is it that so many make choices in spite of not haveing any clarity?

Well, and I would argue that people DO indeed have a great deal of clarity. After all, what would one wish God to do that He has not done?

I suppose it depends on what you are referring to clarity about, I was assuming that Greta was talking about things of this earth, but I agree that there is little unclarity about God's existence. But I was asking if Greta was referring to clarity about things of this Earth, other than God.

thedoc wrote:... there is little unclarity about God's existence.

If there was clarity everyone would be a believer. Certainly many, many more.

Further, why should I believe you, IC, the Bible, Koran, Bhagavad Gita, Book of Mormon, or any of those making competing claims?

Greta wrote:

thedoc wrote:... there is little unclarity about God's existence.

If there was clarity everyone would be a believer. Certainly many, many more.

Further, why should I believe you, IC, the Bible, Koran, Bhagavad Gita, Book of Mormon, or any of those making competing claims?

I don't believe that any of those books deny the existence of God, but I will agree that there are differences in the details. Many people do believe in the existence of God (many more than deny it) but there are many differences in the details of the religion, not in the basic belief in God.

Greta wrote: Why should I believe the Bible over all of the competing claims?

Which other religions deny the existence of God?