Noax wrote:ken wrote:If I state, "I believe the sun revolves around the earth" then this is much different from if I state, "I have gained a view that the sun revolves around the earth, but I know where I have gained this view from, which was from everyone else who believes this and says it is and must be the truth, but I actually can not prove this to be true, as well as I do not have any actual proof of this, so from the view I have now the sun revolves the earth but I will never accept nor believe that to be because if I did, then I would not remain open to that this may not actually be true, right, and/or correct." A bit long winded but I prefer to remain open then state things that close Me off to learning newer or truer things. Saying, "In my view ...", instead of "I believe ..." leaves Me far more OPEN. By removing the word "believe" and changing it with "view" changes my whole outlook. The words we use and say have far more of an effect on us than we realize, that is until we realize just how much the words we say and use actually do influence us.
You seem to have left out the general case that you don't consider the sun's procession across the sky each day a thing that needs to be believed or not.
If you have NOT noticed yet, I say there is absolutely nothing that needs to be believed or not. So, why would I mention it?
As for if the sun's procession across the sky each day or not has absolutely NOTHING at all with what I am talking about.
I was saying that, by the way some thing is stated shows just how much belief or not is being held in what is being stated.
Noax wrote: Your long winded description describes someone who has already listed the thing as something to be doubted.
Did you notice the very first three words? The first word, 'IF", especially shows what is really going on here.
Noax wrote:It is also a poor example. Belief in the orbiting sun is not something that matters.
The whole point of this belief example has nothing at all do with its truth or not. I purposely used an example of a belief that people once believed was the absolute truth but in the end was proven to be false. Although it take some years to prove what was clearly obvious. The reason it took so long was because the people were wanting to hold onto and maintain a belief, which they had already obtained. If people did not have beliefs and thus were truly open in the beginning, then the amount of time that it would have taken to expose and see the Truth would have been far, far quicker.
By the way what do you allege having a belief in exactly is something that does really matter?
Noax wrote: You assume it will be light tomorrow, and that's all you need to be fit, unless you're in charge of steering your own spacecraft to some destination, in which case you had better be knowledgeable about orbital mechanics if you expect to live. The truth makes you more fit in that case.
'You' may assume things but I do NOT. So speak for you only and do not try to speak for I.
Noax wrote:Pick an example where lies make you more fit.
Do you want Me to pick an example that suits you stance, your belief? Remember I have been asking for examples of people's beliefs so that we can delve into them, but as of yet no one else has provided any. I have neither any beliefs nor disbeliefs (in) anything so I can not provide any real examples. The very reason I provided that example, which was obviously not noticed, is because that was what the people's of one era once believed, which was obviously not true. Just the people's of this era believe things, which to Me are obviously not true. But just like the people's of yesteryear were not open to what was actual fact, because they wanted to hold onto and maintain their beliefs, they were totally unable to hear and see the Truth. This is exactly what is happening with the people's of today. The ones who have beliefs and are holding onto them and maintain those beliefs that they do then they are NOT open and thus NOT able to hear and see what the actual Truths are. Hobbs' choice is prime example of this.
Noax wrote:Can you provide an example of some thing that you allege one can not simply be chosen to unbelieved?
Yes, but you won't believe it. You must work it out. I can say my Avatar is not yellow. Would you believe that? OK, you can choose to not believe that since it doesn't really matter. Bad example. How about choosing to believe you cannot make a decision that can benefit or hurt yourself? You can rationally believe that, but not not truly hold that belief at your core since it matters.
WHAT?
I asked you if can provide an example of some thing that
YOU allege one can not simply be chosen to be unbelieved? If you can, then provide the example of where and when you do it. I want the examples of when
YOU do it. Obviously if you are stating that this is what happens then you MUST have examples of when YOU do it. Or, are you suggesting that YOU do not do but only others do it?
Noax wrote:Noax wrote:I hold the biases. Why would I want otherwise?
But you did say you do not want to be free of biases. You said, you came to realize that you cannot be free of biases, and that you also
do not want to be free of biases.
Let me clarify then. I don't want to be free of certain biases, despite knowing they are wrong.
Yes I know. I understood that the first time.
And, I will ask again, what are the exact biases that YOU have that you do not want to be free of?
Noax wrote:Where are, and what are, the biases?
What still functions without those biases? I'm asking what you are. You will give a biased answer.
I asked you to provide the biases YOU have, yet for some reason you wrote this.
If you can provide biases that YOU have, then please provide them. Because I do not have a clue what biases you are referring to if you to not clarify what they are exactly.
By the way if I were to answer your question regarding, "What 'you' are", then the answer I will give is a view I have, which may or may not be right, or be partly right. But it will NOT be biased in any way, shape, nor form.
Noax wrote:What does 'biases' mean to you?
In this context, beliefs that I hold without even knowing that they are even beliefs, or that I hold despite rational demonstration of inconsistency. So not counting say political biases where I think this side is more correct than the other one. I'm talking about beliefs that are in your DNA and not just learned.
I asked you what does 'biases' mean to you, and you for some reason wrote this.
The question again is what does 'biases' mean to you.
I think the reason we are continuing this discussion this way might be because we have two completely different views on what 'biases' means.
Until I know what you mean by 'biases' I do not know how to respond to you correctly.
As for the beliefs within DNA well I have mentioned that. But to add more light to it, there are four built in needs within the human bodies DNA. These four needs are what is needed for human being to live and survive. These are the only four things that human beings as a whole NEED to live and survive. They can not be gotten rid of, obviously. I also would not class them as beliefs. To Me, beliefs are learned knowledge that is taken to the point of not being able to challenged nor changed.
Noax wrote:But all adult human beings DO HAVE a choice in what they think and feel. So their is a choice whether to believe or not to believe.
Sounds like a statement not open to debate. Are you biased about this assertion or might you consider being wrong about it?
Of course I consider it could be wrong. I have stipulated many times previously that absolutely everything I write is open to being wrong. Always have and always will be.
If you can provide any examples to show how adult human beings do NOT have a choice in what they think and feel, then I will consider it. But remember I have already stipulated the choice of what to think is limited to only those thoughts that have already been gained and stored within the brain.
Noax wrote:Okay so we agree an obtained belief, is pretty trivial and does not really matter. Do you agree that these ones can be gotten rid of completely?
One can recognize them, but still hold them.
Of course they can. I am the One suggesting people get rid of the beliefs that they hold onto dearly and want to maintain. So, obviously beliefs can still be held onto.
Noax wrote: Be open to alternative but still have a preferred opinion. I don't think that is getting rid of them. Would reduce you to being an opinionless rock.
WHAT?
I have expressed countless views/opinions, which I am totally open to any and all alternatives, I have not become close to an opinionless rock yet.
Noax wrote:HOW and WHY exactly?
See example above. If I believed I could not make a choice to benefit myself, I'd have no reason to draw breath. I'm quite programmed to want to draw breath. The rational part of me is just plain not in charge of such things.
Again you used the word 'believed'. Every time a human being says they believe, then I question them why have the belief in the first place when it is unnecessary and could in fact be totally incorrect, untrue, and false?
Noax wrote:To Me, 'free will' is just defined as the ability to choose.
And how would that differ from un-free will?
Is that meant to be a "trick" question?
NOT having the ability to choose, would be the difference from un-free will if I had to take a guess.
Noax wrote: What is the entity doing the choosing here?
The depends. If the entity chooses to look from thoughts stored within brain first and/or only, then that entity is the person. But, if the Entity chooses to look from the Mind, which is always truly open, AND THEN use the thoughts stored within the brain for further reference, then that Entity is known by many names, some such as Spirit, Allah, God, Enlightenment, et cetera, et cetera.
Noax wrote:A lot depends on you philosophy of mind here.
At the rate we are going it will be a few years before you would be close to fully understanding what it is that I have to say about this.
Noax wrote: A simple machine has free will by your definition. A (classic example) thermostat chooses to turn on the heat when it gets cold enough. Do you envision yourself in similar terms to that example? If not, what's the difference?
Yes a person can work as simple as a machine in that it only chooses to look from a thought that has already been gained. What is even more simple is when that thought is then believed to be true, right, and correct.
Noax wrote:To Me, it is not a question of does free will or determinism exist but that they both exist equally.
They are different views of the same thing, and they are contradictory views.
To you they might be, but they certainly are not different views of the same thing nor are they contradictory views to Me. But then again I do not have any contradictory views, anyway. To Me, free will and determinism are two different things that exist equally within human beings. But then again I do not see the same way human beings do, therefore the huge difference between I and you. Human beings make some things contradictory and also view some things that way, whereas I do not do either.
Noax wrote: It is a clue that there is a biased belief somewhere in there even if you can't identify the bias.
You will persist that I have biased beliefs "somewhere" even when you can not draw them out and put them here in front of everyone so that you could actually back up what you are trying to say. The belief YOU have that I also MUST have biased beliefs will NOT allow you to see what is actually happening here. You even go to the lengths of suggesting that I have them and I can not identify the bias. It is like YOU want Me to look for, find and identify, what is NOT there, because YOU have absolutely no hope of doing it yourself.
If as you allege they are there, then just identify them for ALL to see now.
By the way you have yet to even identify the biased beliefs that you, yourself, have, and provide the examples of them for us here so that we can look into them in more depth. Do you know WHY you continue to refuse to provide examples?
Noax wrote:Every adult human being can choose what to think BUT they ALL are limited upon the selection to choose from. What a human being can think is pre-determined by the thoughts that already exist within the brain. So, every human being has the freedom, or the free will, to choose, but the limited choices they have to choose from determines what they can actually think, and thus can then do. What behaviors human beings do is determined by what limited thoughts that they have within them, but they certainly have the free will to choose between those choice of thoughts.
Nice description of a self driving car. Can choose, but has limited choices.
Nice assimilation also by you, I must admit, in recognizing the resemblance. Most human beings are self driven beings, not really knowing where they are heading but continually driving on aimlessly.
The difference however between human beings and self driving cars, though, is human beings have the ability to look at things from a truly open perspective, and thus have the ability to imagine, invent, plan, learn, discover, understand, and create absolute new and more things, whereas self driving cars do NOT have this ability.
Noax wrote:Why are your biases obviously false? Is it possible that some of them could be true?
Some, not all.
So if some of them could be true, then why did you say that your biases are obviously false?
Noax wrote: That I am some thing with numeric identity that persists through time is clearly contradictory.
I do not understand this at all and do not even know what question to ask for clarity.
Noax wrote: That I find myself to be this top-of-intellectual-food-chain entity is beyond improbable.
HOW could some thing that exists be beyond improbable?
The very fact that you, and the body, are here means that the chances are far less than improbable.
Noax wrote: Why am I not a more probable blade of grass or a rock in some more ordinary place?
There is no other place than the Universe, so being here is being in the most ordinary of places possible.
Noax wrote: Clearly there are biases to discover by noting such things.
If you do not even know the biases, then how can you be so sure that they even exist?
I am still curios to know the biases you say YOU have, are false, and that you do not want to get rid of.