Philosophy Now Forum

OuterLimits wrote:Just as you can't use any of your experiences to prove you are NOT a brain in a vat,

Empirical claims are not provable period. It's a category error to parse empirical claims in terms of proof(s).

Objectivity is a mode any individual is capable of - even if they are all by themselves on an island.

That's a category error in my opinion, too. We're inherently subjective. We can't experience anything non-mentally--experience is inherently mental, and the mental is subjective (by definition).

OuterLimits wrote:This is a model or a theory. A certainty.

I haven't the faintest idea how those two sentences are supposed to go together.

To be like something is to have a functioning human brain, and to have a functioning human brain is to be like something.

Are you using "to be like something" as a synonym for "having consciousness"/"having (conscious) experiences"?

Did you discover this at some point in your life, or were you born with the knowledge?

We know this from tons of evidence, including neuroscientific evidence.

Neuroscientific evidence - correlates the activity in the brain with various behaviors. If the laws of physics account for all of the behaviors, then what does consciousness "do" ? And if that person's consciousness isn't doing anything, then how and why are you concluding that it is even there?

OuterLimits wrote:Neuroscientific evidence - correlates the activity in the brain with various behaviors.

Including consciousness, yes. Both patients and doctors note how particular brain states (in the wake of injuries, for example) affect consciousness.

If the laws of physics account for all of the behaviors, then what does consciousness "do" ?

Consciousness is one of the things that's accounted for by physical facts. (Which I'm stating that way because I'm not a realist on physical laws.)

And if that person's consciousness isn't doing anything,

Which of course isn't the case, consciousness does many things, such as enabling me to answer this post.

then how and why are you concluding that it is even there?

If you don't experience any consciousness, that's fine. You must be a robot of some sort. Some of us experience consciousness however.

I could be conscious and telling you about the nice day I'm having...
Or I could be a sophisticated robot trying to fool you and it's working...

How would you go about figuring out which?

OuterLimits wrote:I could be conscious and telling you about the nice day I'm having...
Or I could be a sophisticated robot trying to fool you and it's working...

How would you go about figuring out which?

I mentioned this before. I'd check if you have a human brain first off.

What if we don't play a game, though, and we have a serious discussion instead?

Terrapin Station wrote:

OuterLimits wrote:I could be conscious and telling you about the nice day I'm having...
Or I could be a sophisticated robot trying to fool you and it's working...

How would you go about figuring out which?

I mentioned this before. I'd check if you have a human brain first off.

What if we don't play a game, though, and we have a serious discussion instead?

Why would you check if I have a human brain - what does that have to do with anything?

I'm sincerely asking questions about what you believe and why - I guess you could call that a game...

Terrapin Station wrote:

Greta wrote:Order is objective as an opposite to chaos, but quantifying is difficult due to the many ways that things can be ordered. . .

Are you using the mathematical sense of "chaos"?

I guess so - order v disorder, chaos. Not easy to calculate

Oops.

They have nothing better to do with all this copious time on their evolving hands.

OuterLimits wrote: Why would you check if I have a human brain - what does that have to do with anything?

That's the physical stuff that we know has the properties of consciousness/mentality.

OuterLimits wrote:Neuroscientific evidence - correlates the activity in the brain with various behaviors. If the laws of physics account for all of the behaviors, then what does consciousness "do" ? And if that person's consciousness isn't doing anything, then how and why are you concluding that it is even there?

Yeah but there might be no such thing as neuroscience. It might just be part of the "matrix" programme that we are all hooked up to.
Yeah but there might be no such thing as physics. It might just be part of the "matrix" programme that we are all hooked up to.
Yeah but there might be no such thing as another persons consciousness. It might just be part of the "matrix" programme that we are all hooked up to.

OuterLimits wrote:

Terrapin Station wrote:

OuterLimits wrote:I could be conscious and telling you about the nice day I'm having...
Or I could be a sophisticated robot trying to fool you and it's working...

How would you go about figuring out which?

I mentioned this before. I'd check if you have a human brain first off.

What if we don't play a game, though, and we have a serious discussion instead?

Why would you check if I have a human brain - what does that have to do with anything?

I'm sincerely asking questions about what you believe and why - I guess you could call that a game...

Yeah but there might be no such thing as you and your game. It might just be part of the "matrix" programme that we are all hooked up to.

Hobbes' Choice wrote: Yeah but there might be no such thing as you and your game. It might just be part of the "matrix" programme that we are all hooked up to.

For me it's about going with your gut vs claiming that science justifies some statement when it does not.

OuterLimits wrote:

Hobbes' Choice wrote: Yeah but there might be no such thing as you and your game. It might just be part of the "matrix" programme that we are all hooked up to.

For me it's about going with your gut vs claiming that science justifies some statement when it does not.

There is probably a good word to describe this sort of response. Please re-read your last sentence and tell me exactly what "IT" is you mention in the third word, as without a precise meaning to "IT" you are saying nothing whatever.