Philosophy Now Forum

Bill Wiltrack wrote:...don't push yourself too hard. Don't beat yourself up... /you are cordial... / Keep-up the good work

There's something seriously wrong with you.

Terrapin Station wrote:

Greta wrote:Suffering comes in all kinds of shapes, styles and scales.

Which is just what I said re why the term makes little sense to me. It's used far too broadly. I have no idea how you'd actually define it, for example, and now you are avoiding doing so.

Do you really not remember ever feeling gut-wrenching suffering?

I never said that "I've never suffered." The only way that suffering makes much sense to me as a clear concept is if a necessary characteristic of it is significant pain or psychological distress. I've experienced significant pain and psychological distress. That's just not at all a regular experience for me--in other words, I don't experience that very often, and most of the people I know well--friends, family, etc.--do not seem to experience significant pain or psychological distress very often. (And when they do/if they did, I'd suggest they see a physician and/or psychiatrist. In other words, if someone is regularly suffering, there's something wrong with them, or they're perhaps living under some extreme, completely fncked-up political regime, or they're being falsely imprisoned by a psychopath or some such.)

I'm of course not saying that friends, family and I never itch or feel hungry or anything like that. But it makes zero sense to me to say that things like itching and feeling hungry amount to suffering. If suffering is to be applied so broadly, it's not at all clear how we'd even define the term, and it's certainly not the case that it necessarily has a negative connotation.

The reason I included itching is because I have a chronic itch on my left arm that I've scratched so much that the skin has become hardened. It wakes me at night quite often and, since steroid creams don't touch it, I have to place a freezer pack on it until it settles. Doc and specialist have no idea. A biopsy revealed nothing.

Note that my issues are extremely mild compared with what some people endure with itching problems. In rare cases people have suffered with itching to the extent that they take their own lives. I simply include itching as a type of suffering, not to highlight trivial daily issues. I thought it obvious that I was referring to pathology. I mean, why the [expletive] would I talk about mozzie bites in that context??

Were you hoping to make a broader point with this focus on itching?

Greta wrote:The reason I included itching is because I have a chronic itch on my left arm that I've scratched so much that the skin has become hardened. It wakes me at night quite often and, since steroid creams don't touch it, I have to place a freezer pack on it until it settles. Doc and specialist have no idea. A biopsy revealed nothing.

That sounds very aggravating. Have you ever tried Tea Tree Oil? It seems like a miracle cure for a lot of things.

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Tea tree oil is toxic when taken by mouth, but is widely used in low concentrations in cosmetics and skin washes.

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Hobbes' Choice wrote:

ken wrote: I am NOT sure of your definition of 'suffering' but I certainly do NOT suffer moment by moment and I certainly do NOT suffer in a very real way.

You haven't lived!!

If you've not suffered then you can't be trying hard enough to enjoy yourself.
You shall suffer - and soon enough. It shall be without meaning, and you will feel the pain regardless of any meaning you try to impose on it. So you need to get on with life - it's passing you by.

Obviously you have not read all of my previous posts in this thread.

I "suffered" in my childhood, I just did not realize that at the time, till I looked back on my life. From my child perspective that was just how life was. I was not to know there was a "better" way. I grew up blocking ALL feelings so i never felt anything, therefore i could not feel suffering. But, only from retrospection, i was suffering, ALL the time, I just did not know it at the time. So, from your logic of "you haven't lived" until you have suffered, I may have well 'lived' more than you or others ever could.

When i started 'feeling' again, a lot later on, i also discovered that a feeling is just that, only a feeling. Feelings are just a 'signpost' in Life of what is going on around me. Feelings, if used correctly can be a great guider of what is right and what is wrong in life. I also learned, after who I really am was revealed, that feelings do not actually control Me. I CAN control them. Therefore, (and now read this, as I write it), I certainly do NOT suffer moment by moment and I certainly do NOT suffer in a very real way.

I try to always stay aware of and notice feelings, and then I use those feelings as a signal of how to respond in appropriate ways. But I certainly never suffer from, and because of, just a feeling, like you may do, AND I try to never allow feelings to ever control Me, like probably happens to you.

Did you notice the difference between the way I write and the way you write? I speak ONLY for Me ONLY, whereas you are trying to tell Me what I will do. Besides the fact that you are trying to do the impossible, i.e., speak for others. It also appears you could not be more egotistical even if you tried to be. Who gave you the right to think you can tell Me, or any other person, what they WILL (or will not) do? Also, just because you will do something does NOT mean others will also do that same thing.

I am not sure who you think you are but you can not accurately tell Me what I will or will not do. The Truth is you can ONLY speak for yourself only. You can write, "You shall suffer - and soon enough. It shall be without meaning, and you will feel the pain regardless of any meaning you try to impose on it. So you need to get on with life - it's passing you by." BUT 'you' are NEVER able to truthfully say what another will do.

So, do NOT tell me what I will do and I will not tell you what you will do, ok?

If you look truthfully at what you actually wrote, you may also discover that this is 'you' talking to "your" self.

If I say or write, "I certainly do NOT suffer moment by moment and I certainly do NOT suffer in a very real way." either accept that or prove how I am, or could be, wrong. Do NOT just try to tell Me what I will do from what you yourself do. Doing that without any evidence nor proof just makes you look like you have not yet fully understood internal feelings yet. Also, if you are continuing to "suffer" in Life, then that means you have not yet learned how to control feelings, instead you are allowing feelings to control you. But you actually do need to learn "Who I am?" before you could take control properly.

As a responsible truly Self-aware adult you do NOT and will NOT suffer.

A child, however, has no choice; in what happens to them, how they learn to think, and how they feel, so if a child suffers, then that is perfectly normal (in this world), and thus also perfectly understandable. But, an adult CAN choose; in what happens to them, how they think in any situation, and thus also how they feel. Therefore, if an adult is supposedly "suffering", then that is what they choose to do. If an adult can NOT accept that this is a relatively very short life that they are living, in this one and only Life, and if they are not satisfied with what they have, then that is of there own doing. Besides those occasions where an adult has no choice in what is happening around them, e.g., surrounded within a war zone, being held captive, is prevented from gaining food and medicine, etc., just about all other occasions where an adult just wants to "suffer", then so be it. However, if they want to express openly and honestly what they are thinking and how they are feeling and supposedly meant to be "suffering" from, and they seriously want to change for the better, then I will help and support them always.

So, if you "think" you are "suffering" from anything now, or any time soon, and want to be truly open and honest about 'you', then go ahead and share that. But do NOT assume anything about Me and certainly do NOT try tell me what I will, or will not, do.

Lacewing wrote:

Greta wrote:The reason I included itching is because I have a chronic itch on my left arm that I've scratched so much that the skin has become hardened. It wakes me at night quite often and, since steroid creams don't touch it, I have to place a freezer pack on it until it settles. Doc and specialist have no idea. A biopsy revealed nothing.

That sounds very aggravating. Have you ever tried Tea Tree Oil? It seems like a miracle cure for a lot of things.

Yep. I don't think the the issue is the skin but what's going on underneath. I've suspected maybe nerve issues related to a couple of bulging discs in my lower back but haven't followed through.

The OP asks a nonsensical question. Meaning isn't the sort of thing that is found in a spatiotemporal location. Thus, asking "where" one finds meaning is gibberish. It is prima facie evidence that the speaker is using an emaciated conceptual framework(or they've no clue, or both). All meaning is attributed. It is a direct result of and therefore reflects all the current and past connections, associations, and/or correlations drawn between 'objects' of physiological sensory perception and/or oneself(emotional attitude/state of mind).

Dig in Bill...

creativesoul wrote:The OP asks a nonsensical question. Meaning isn't the sort of thing that is found in a spatiotemporal location. Thus, asking "where" one finds meaning is gibberish. It is prima facie evidence that the speaker is using an emaciated conceptual framework(or they've no clue, or both). All meaning is attributed. It is a direct result of and therefore reflects all the current and past connections, associations, and/or correlations drawn between 'objects' of physiological sensory perception and/or oneself(emotional attitude/state of mind).

Dig in Bill...

It can be looked at in that way. However, reading between the lines, it's clear that Bill wants to talk about how we are shaped by our suffering, and how we learn from it.

Greta wrote:

creativesoul wrote:The OP asks a nonsensical question. Meaning isn't the sort of thing that is found in a spatiotemporal location. Thus, asking "where" one finds meaning is gibberish. It is prima facie evidence that the speaker is using an emaciated conceptual framework(or they've no clue, or both). All meaning is attributed. It is a direct result of and therefore reflects all the current and past connections, associations, and/or correlations drawn between 'objects' of physiological sensory perception and/or oneself(emotional attitude/state of mind).

Dig in Bill...

It can be looked at in that way. However, reading between the lines, it's clear that Bill wants to talk about how we are shaped by our suffering, and how we learn from it.

It is amazing how we each can see completely different things in the exact same written words. What you say "is clear", was in fact NOT clear at all to me, until just now. What was "clear", to me, previously was bill wanted to know "Where do we find meaning in our suffering". Trying to "Read between the lines" before left me thinking bill wanted something else. I guess this shows just how much every thing is relative to the observer. It would have been much better if I cleared up with bill earlier what bill actually wanted us to talk about.

If bill had said that he wants us to talk about how we are shaped by our suffering, and how we learn from suffering, then I would have ask if he also wanted us to talk about what we learned from suffering.

I have already explained twice that I never knew I was suffering till much later on, but how I was shaped by that new found "suffering" was in HOW I actually learned from it. HOW I learned from it was by being totally Honest and Open and Wanting to change, for the better. It is not sought, but it may be of some interest to some one, was what I learned from the actual "suffering" was to block ALL emotional feelings, which was truly a blessing, as I was then only able to decipher the "world" from the perspective of thinking only. I was thus never influenced emotionally but only conceptually. I would not believe nor disbelieve as readily and as easily as others would, just for the sake of doing this. Not till later on I realized it was to my detriment to believe and/or disbelieve anything at all, besides believing (in) the one Self.

What I also learned was HOW a truly peaceful world for everyone could be created. Now, because of My new found belief in Self I know I can and WILL explain HOW everyone living together in peace and harmony can actually be very easily achieved.

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it's clear that Bill wants to talk about how we are shaped by our suffering, and how we learn from it.

Meaning in your suffering.






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ken wrote:
So, if you "think" you are "suffering" from anything now, or any time soon, and want to be truly open and honest about 'you', then go ahead and share that. But do NOT assume anything about Me and certainly do NOT try tell me what I will, or will not, do.

I'm pretty sure your story, devoid of details, is one that could be told by any of us - or most of us.

So it does not really change what I said.

Bill Wiltrack wrote:.



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This image had me in tears yesterday. It is the tip of a massive ice-berg whose mass is contributed to by the US, and the UK, as this scene can be repeated all over the middle east, nay most of the world where US and UK bombs are used for terror.

And before some pedant tells us that it was a Syrian/ russian bomb falling the caused this little guy's suffering, I say so what? DO you really imagine that children are immune to Western bombs?

Hobbes' Choice wrote:

ken wrote:
So, if you "think" you are "suffering" from anything now, or any time soon, and want to be truly open and honest about 'you', then go ahead and share that. But do NOT assume anything about Me and certainly do NOT try tell me what I will, or will not, do.

I'm pretty sure your story, devoid of details, is one that could be told by any of us - or most of us.

So it does not really change what I said.

So, you believe you have the forsight to KNOW what will happen and what others will do?

Even when I say I do not do something nor will I do something, which I can choose to do or not do, you will still keep believing that you KNOW more than Me and will keep believing and insisting that I will do it. I am now just wondering how you could possibly KNOW this and be SO SURE of yourself?

You do NOT even know who 'you' are, let alone have a clue who 'I' am, yet you believe you KNOW what I will do and how I will behave.

With that much ability "that you have obtained" I wish you could tell Me when you will start listening to what I say and will do, instead of you trying to tell Me what I will say and do.

Now listen, I DO NOT SUFFER. Now accept that or prove, with evidence, otherwise. Until then what you said I do and will do IS just what you WILL do and ONLY what you think I will do.

You say you WILL choose to continue to "suffer". So be it. That is your choice. It certainly IS NOT My choice.

ken wrote:

Hobbes' Choice wrote:

ken wrote:
So, if you "think" you are "suffering" from anything now, or any time soon, and want to be truly open and honest about 'you', then go ahead and share that. But do NOT assume anything about Me and certainly do NOT try tell me what I will, or will not, do.

I'm pretty sure your story, devoid of details, is one that could be told by any of us - or most of us.

So it does not really change what I said.

So, you believe you have the forsight to KNOW what will happen and what others will do?.

Possible the most childish and asinine straw man I've seen in an long time.

Hobbes' Choice wrote:

ken wrote:

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
I'm pretty sure your story, devoid of details, is one that could be told by any of us - or most of us.

So it does not really change what I said.

So, you believe you have the forsight to KNOW what will happen and what others will do?.

Possible the most childish and asinine straw man I've seen in an long time.

YOU are the only one telling Me what I do when I say I do not do it.