Lacewing wrote:Oh my, Ken... your comments and questions draw me in, but I'm starting to feel at a loss in explaining my perspective further. I've put forth a lot, already, which... I think would have been understood more easily than it has, if we were inclined that way.
I have understood all that you have had to say. I only look like I do not understand because I ask very simple and straight forward clarifying questions. This is the result of being a very simple person and thus not assuming nor believing (in) anything.
Lacewing wrote:ken wrote:It appears to Me also that you keep persisting with statements like, "It's not about reaching an ultimate truth or an end." Even though I have never mentioned anything like this you keep writing this. Do you think reaching an ultimate truth or an end is really anything that I am about here?
I say it because it is such a common component of people's beliefs and perspectives --
What other people belief and perceive would be best left at that and not be confused with anything I say or do.
Lacewing wrote: and yes, I say it also because you've mentioned many times an idea about everyone agreeing on a single truth.
What I mention is seriously NOT about everyone agreeing on a single truth. It is about
THAT, what everyone happens to agree upon. This NOT about searching for and finding what we all agree upon, but what we already commonly share and collectively agree with.
THAT, what we All commonly share and agree with is obviously a single truth, for the very fact that there is no one disagreeing.
Lacewing wrote: Even though you may not consider that a "final" destination, it is still an "ultimate truth" and "an end point" to be reached. Right?
No, not at all. For example let us say every person is agreeing that the sun revolves earth. If EVERY person is in agreement, then by definition there is no person saying other wise, therefore this is a single truth. However, because if people start believing or disbelieving (in) something, even if everyone is in agreement, then this will prevent those people from learning more and anew, when that knowledge comes along. So, even if every person is in total agreement that the sun revolves the earth, it is better if every person always remains open to the fact that this may not be absolute and ultimate unchangeable truth. If just one person comes along with another way of looking at this, then if others are open they would be able to see where the one is coming from, thus new or more knowledge can not and will not be obtained. For example that just maybe the opposite in true and that earth revolves the sun. So in this fashion of always remaining open there is certainly NO final destination, NO ultimate truth, and/nor NO and end point to be reached. I thought I, but obviously I had not, made this clear previously.
Lacewing wrote:ken wrote:What I do say, however, is if there is an internal WANT inside every person, and if that WANT is the same for EVERY person, then that WANT is a goal that we personally can not NOT want or take control over, and as such there is this instinctual collective quest that no person could easily free them self of. If that is the case, then there is a Oneness that already has a goal for human beings, which even if they tried to human beings could not NOT achieve it.
This is a whole lot of "ifs" that make sense to you... but it may not be a focus for other people.
Of course it is not a focus for some other people. ALL people can be focusing on completely different things. But that does not take away from the fact that what I just pointed could in fact be truth. It is this simple if every person once in their lives WANTED to live in peace and harmony, then there is an internal WANT inside every person, which is commonly shared and agreed upon, and this WANT could be the exact same drive, from the Driver of Oneness.
Some adults will say that they do not want peace and harmony but no person could say that there was not point in their lives a time when they were focusing on WANTING to live in peace and harmony. What people will
try to override with their own individual thinking and beliefs
will never override their true desires and potential. The desire to come together as One and react and behave as One, can and never will be overridden by individual human being pretense.
Lacewing wrote: I've tried to express what I see too. And I think we're just going to each see what we see, and proceed based on that.
But what you see is people put the individual in the way of Oneness, right?
I see if people disregard the individual completely, then Oneness flows and shines through so easily and unadulterated. I see that Oneness is NOT found or got to or allowed to appear by and through what people individually
think is right but by and through 'what is', coincidentally, what people collectively
know is right.
I think you are always seeing that whatever human beings say or write will and is always distorting what Oneness is doing.
Lacewing wrote:ken wrote:Lacewing wrote: Maybe because I've stopped believing that my vision for how the river should flow is somehow a superior vision to what is actually happening.
I found that if something is disbelieved (in) as much as something else is believed (in), then the exact same thing can occur, i.e., the person is unable to find and see more and/or anew.
I think you really stepped over the point I was trying to make here. I could have easily used a different word than "believing" (and in fact, something told me not to use it, but I did anyway). Perhaps change the word "believing" to "insisting", and see if you get anything different from the sentence and/or if you feel inclined to respond the same way?
I still want to respond the same way. I was not really interested in your use of the word 'believe' here. I was merely trying to point that maybe you might have done a complete turn around and gone from one "extreme" to the other. Instead of believing that your vision for how the river
should flow is somehow a superior vision to what is actually happening, now you might be disbelieving that your vision has any influence at all or any matter of importance at all to or in what is actually happening?
Just something to think about.
I am in total agreement in that an individual person nearly always prevents the superior river of Oneness flowing freely but I am also open to the idea that through people the river of Oneness may flow and be seen.
Whereas you seem to be rejecting this idea altogether. Maybe I am wrong here?
I have NEVER given a vision/view of how the river
should flow. I have especially NEVER given a view from a personal individual level also. Oneness's view is all about what everyone shares and could agree with. Only from this vision I write.
Lacewing wrote:ken wrote:Lacewing wrote: I can envision my own art... and then focus on the energetic quality of the moment, and that appears to ripple fast and far. But again, I'm not trying to control it or determine what "should" be. It appears best to stay out of the way, and not block or manipulate the larger flow -- and instead focus on maintaining my own clarity.
Just maybe, just by doing that, you are in fact actually allowing that larger One to flow right HERE and NOW, which will be seen and fully understood in these writings, later on.
Ken, that is exactly what seems to be happening. Are you really not seeing from my writing that this is what I'm seeing and expressing?
Yes I can see this, but i think at another higher level there is a further understanding that you are missing out on. This understanding comes from a deeper level from within, by just opening up a bit more and allowing this deeper truer Self to flow and be revealed, you will gain a better and fully understanding.
Lacewing wrote:ken wrote:What do you propose is the 'bigger', and, what do you propose is the 'us'? I could assume 'us', to mean human beings, but I just want to make sure with you. I also have a very clear view of what the 'bigger' is but I want to see your view and where you are coming from with that view?
Yes, that's it, Ken. I'm sorry but I feel like I've already explained it so much. I can't keep going over and over it.
If you are unable to better explain things, then fair enough. I will just take 'bigger' and 'us' to mean what i think is meant.
I, on the other hand, what to keep explaining and expressing all of 'what is' so that it all can be fully understood.
This is exactly why I am searching for definitions and language to use that will prevent any person from having to assume again what is meant by another, once and for all. If there are no assumptions being made, nor beliefs being held, then their is only One Being of openness flowing as One.
Lacewing wrote:ken wrote:Lacewing wrote: Ironically... if we stop doing and imposing, and start being and flowing, the universe seems to flow perfectly on all sorts of levels.
Yes this is true on a certain level, a higher level by the way, but on the level that we human beings are on now that sort of reasoning can give every person permission or a excuse or reason to carry on doing whatever that is that they want to do, no matter how wrong or abusive that is to them self, other people or things, and/or to the environment itself.
It seems to me that you're mixing levels again. If you keep doing this, I think you dilute the clarity of the collective/broader level.
But when I ask you to better clarify this 'bigger/broader/higher' level you are unable to do so. So, clarity is being diluted this way.
But we, human beings, can not just sit up on this higher level pretending that everything is just fine, down below, when what we are actually thinking and doing is down at much lower abusive level. The way that stops the unhealthy level from happening again and brings everyone up to a much higher weller level needs to be expressed and learned in order for all to stay up on the collective higher level.
All the signs are here pointing to all people to just accept you are doing wrong, and then also showing how to take responsibility for that wrong doing, but even with all the signage and the internal tutor and guider, speaking Truth all the time people will just not stop doing and imposing. The obvious of this Oneness is so bright, it may to blinding, but if you could just explain why you yourself do not stop doing and imposing and instead just start being and flowing properly, then maybe that would help Me in learning what new signs to show.
Lacewing wrote:ken wrote:Lacewing wrote: What we are capable of seeing at any given moment, is not all there is to see -- so, I think it's valuable not to take any particular image (we may see) too seriously... rather, perhaps, admire (and learn to love) the artwork.
But there are some things, which I do not like, and wish to change. For example people abusing. Although I can and do accept what they do because I fully understand WHY they abuse, but I certainly do not want to just "sit back", as they say, and just admire nor love that type of artwork.
Mixing levels.
What is wrong with mixing levels, exactly, if I am just jumping or changing from one level to another? If I understand every and all levels, then I can mix/jump up and down without any trouble at all. In fact to be able to see and understand ALL meaningful things about life, a perspective from ALL levels is needed to be looked at, continuously.
If, however, by 'mixing levels' you mean I am getting confused, then how do you propose this is happening if you are unable to explain the levels clearly and concisely?
sthitapragya wrote:From a broader level, yes you can see and love the beauty and perfection of all that is as it is.
Is remaining at that broader level and just seeing the love and the beauty and perfection of all that is as it is, just one of the ways that allows your to keep abusing others as you are doing right now? Are there any consequences whatsoever whilst you just sit at and remain looking from this broader level?
Lacewing wrote: If you want to keep delving back into the human drama level to wrestle and argue with it, then do so.
I am not wrestling with the human level with a win-lose approach. I am learning far more, from this human "drama" level, which I am on right here and now in this forum, about how to express how to uplift one's self from this lower level up to a much more understanding and much better preferred level than I ever could by just sitting up higher and looking down.
'Arguing', or
logical reasoning, with human beings is a great way to learn how to express better. In fact through logical reasoning sound, valid arguments can, are, and have been made, and from a sound, valid argument no dispute could be made. If every person could agree, then there is no person who could disagree, and from vantage point far, far more can and will be seen. So, delving back, as you say, and arguing I find very rewarding.
Lacewing wrote: But I cannot keep doing that in the way that you do. They are two different channels... and although they're on the same "TV", they're difficult to watch or make sense of at the same time.
Really is that how it is for you, from a personal individual level. Thanks for that information.
I find that jumping between ALL the channels and levels so very easy and simple it is not like I am even changing the channels at all.
Lacewing wrote: If I'm talking about one channel, and you switch it, I can't keep spending the energy to point that out and explain the differences I see between the channels. Does that make sense to you?
Yes of course.
I was just mistaken in thinking that you also could easily notice the difference in channels and change between them just as quickly and easily whilst being always aware of all the differences on each channel anyway.
I have just learned that I have to take this much, much slower, whilst explaining in very minor detail at what level I am talking about while clarifying ALL of the different points and points of view that are on each level, than I have previously realized.
Lacewing wrote: It's just not where my energy feels drawn to, Ken.
That is okay and perfectly acceptable.
Lacewing wrote:ken wrote:do you really think Oneness, It Self, would not be the Driver driving ALL things...
Yes, I agree with this part...
So, this could explain lacewing's desire to want to write and express in order to be heard better. Could all 'we', human beings, be driven by a desire to be heard and listened to in order to be recognized and accepted for who we really are, who/whatever that may be?
Is it possible that actually Oneness, It Self, also has a desire to be heard and listened to in order to be recognized and accepted for who/what It really is?
I, tell you what, I sure know how lonely it is up HERE at the highest of levels finally knowing who 'I' am, but sitting HERE all alone, watching the movie being played out having and no other to share it with.
Lacewing wrote:ken wrote:to be get along with every other thing, and thus not be abusive, by "nature"?
This, however, is your own idea of how it should be.
Again you have put what could well be easily a Universal Oneness perspective and believe that it is solely one person's individual idea of how it should be.
I think a belief is really getting in the way here.
Lacewing wrote: IF the ONE IS TRULY driving ALL things... ALL things includes supposed abuse and all the other horrors we can imagine. From my perspective, it's ALL creative POSSIBILITY, which is magnificent...
So you will just keep abusing others because that is 'what is', is this right?
You will just keep watching the movie and playing your part in that movie even if that kind of acting could cause the movie to come to a crashing end? Would you or would you not like to be a part of making the movie better?
Lacewing wrote:and it's not significant beyond our earthly experience.
If you are up to answering this, what, exactly, is not significant beyond our earthly experience?
This is a really intense movie... flashing by on a screen. It's vivid, it's engaging, it's realistic, and amazing! When considering all the strife and vast variety of experiences in the world, I've often said: "What else would infinite creative energy do?" Perhaps every potential is explore and expressed! And there's no significance.
And just maybe that infinite creative energy will guide and drive you accepting and taking responsibility for that wrong doing you have continually been doing. You know for a fact that unless you want to change, then nothing else can change you. And, a Oneness energy would not want you to change that good and right part of you, It would only want you to change that bad and wrong doing part of you. But no one can help you unless you want to help yourself. Oneness energy points you in the right direction and guides you will all the signposts in and of life, but what you want to and choose to do is solely your choice and your choice along. So, if you want to continue doing wrong and abusing others but just continue to tell yourself that you are just watching the movie and being and flowing with Oneness, then so be it. BUT, Oneness KNOWS 'what really is', and not what you think 'what is'.
Lacewing wrote:ken wrote:Our, human beings, abusive behavior can not and will not stop unless we all personally accept and take responsibility for doing all of the abusive things that we all do and share.
Of course. I agree! I tend to think that the way this will happen (since it hasn't happened yet with everybody screaming about it and insisting on how to do it) is simply through a change in our vibration... personally and collectively.
But you also insist on you yourself not changing because that is part of 'what is'?
You have just (
tried to) justify to yourself that you are just flowing with 'what is'. BUT the real and true Self, knows what is really happening here.
Lacewing wrote: And the only place that any of us have the ability to achieve such a thing is with ourselves.
Which if ourselves and the role we play is 'what is', then why would we want to change anything, right?
Lacewing wrote: I don't think we can really tell another person how to do it. Rather, we can demonstrate that IT CAN BE DONE simply through our own being.
But if your own being is, not changing for the better and, just sitting by, watching the movie, and doing 'what is' whenever you want, then really that being is not demonstrating any thing other than showing that continually abusing others is 'what is' and what effect this has on harming and damaging others and the environment is 'what is'.
Lacewing wrote: Then, like little switches across an intricately connected network, more may start flipping! Physically arguing and wrestling with better and better arguments changes nothing. Although fun and entertaining, it simply remains in the stew pot, adding more/new ingredients.
Just sitting around, abusing others while watching a movie is also only adding more stress and confusion to the pot.
Lacewing wrote:ken wrote:if abuse if left to continue, then that species causing the abuse will then be wiped out, which to Oneness is of no great loss or not, but, by nature, Oneness would try to keep every species,
Yep, to the first part... and no, to the last part.
So, you really do not care at all if your continual abusive behaviors could lead to further harm and damage, suffering and pain, and/or an earlier end of the human being species?
Lacewing wrote:You are imposing an idea of what Oneness would do.
I might be, but then again I might not be. I might just be speaking perfectly from and for Oneness, It Self. People will only know, If I am or if I am not, if and when they reach that highest of broadest levels, which you yourself say you sit at idly by and watch down from, without ever even attempting to play any true part of Oneness, It Self.
What I can see now is you are just another one trying to appear as though you know what you are actually talking about in relation to The One and only, but in fact are not really able to give any further light on this subject to others.
You want to appear as though you speak from the broadest of levels with Oneness, which a lot of what you say does that, but when it comes down to helping others your answers to clarifying questions is not really doing it. If people can not see and understand what you say from just your words, then they want to see and understand how it possibly could with and from scientific experiential methods.
Lacewing wrote: This is why (I think), you keep mixing the channels/levels... because you really are trying to apply human/individual logic to such a different realm.
There is NO different realm to Oneness, only human beings see and make things differently. Just like there is absolutely no problems in Life, only human beings see and make problems.
I keep changing levels in order to speak from and on each of those levels.
Unless you can speak from the level of Oneness and for this Self, then just maybe parts of human/individual logic also fits in perfectly. You will NEVER know until you are sitting at that level.
Lacewing wrote: Which again is ironic considering you're trying to establish a language that distinguishes them!
Why does it appear ironic to you?
I, by the way, find it funny that language is used to describe and distinguish absolutely everything but when people do not have the right language to distinguish things apart, then they think, that in of itself, means language can not describe and distinguish absolutely every thing.
If and when I find the right language I will be the firs to let you know.
Lacewing wrote: All I can say at this point is: Keep doing what makes sense to you! But please understand that it does not make sense to me...
YET.
And, that is perfectly understandable as I have yet to find and formulate the right language.
Lacewing wrote: and (at this point) I've devoted all the energy I can to sorting through the differences and misunderstandings.
To the best of your ability from the level you are at. This again is perfectly and totally understandable.
Lacewing wrote: I appreciate the effort you have put into it too! Good luck to you in your explorations!
Thanks for the discussion also. It was great. But if this is as far as you can go, then that is 'what is'. You are still far from full understanding but at least you have have got this far. Most people can not and do not get to this level. Most people, in fact, can not even get to any level past what they believe.
I suppose, as an outsider, I'm all for cross-pollination. 
I can't help myself, my mouth overflows what my heart is full of... 