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Re:

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:39 pm
by The Inglorious One
henry quirk wrote: As I say: I may be wrong, however nuthin' offered by any theist I've encountered here or anywhere moves me. As I told Mannie elsewhere in-forum *'I want to touch the piercings in his hands and side'. For me: nuthin' less will do.

*or, as I prefer, 'if you claim there is fire, you must show me the smoke, the flames, or -- at least -- let me touch the hot door behind which the fire lurks...nuthin' less will do'
You should avoid walking trough parking lot puddles....you might drown.

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:52 pm
by henry quirk
It (as methodology) was good enough for Thomas (and he supposedly lived and worked with the man). Asking for evidences in keeping with the (nature of the) claims is, I think, a solid way to conduct business when it comes to the messy affair of 'god-belief' versus 'no god-belief'.

You disagree (or have different notions of what constitutes 'evidence', or have different notions about the nature of the claims)...*shrug*...to each his (or her) own.

Re:

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:04 pm
by The Inglorious One
henry quirk wrote:It (as methodology) was good enough for Thomas (and he supposedly lived and worked with the man). Asking for evidences in keeping with the (nature of the) claims is, I think, a solid way to conduct business when it comes to the messy affair of 'god-belief' versus 'no god-belief'.

You disagree (or have different notions of what constitutes 'evidence', or have different notions about the nature of the claims)...*shrug*...to each his (or her) own.
And that goes to prove what I said: an incredible lack of insight, thought and investigation; and perhaps most significantly, a total lack of wonder as to why things are the way they are.

Re: Consequences of Atheism

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:12 pm
by uwot
The Inglorious One wrote:
...Greek, Mesopotamian and Egyptian mythology. I'm sure others could add to the palette.
Are you illiterate uwot? Or do you just ignore what has already been addressed?
Did I miss something? Could you direct me to it, Inglorious?
You might also consider whether there is any point inscribing the question: "Are you illiterate uwot?" A wholly appropriate response seems to be: Do you understand what illiterate means?

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:03 pm
by henry quirk
Oh sure...I'm dumb as a brick, plodding in my thinking, and lacking in curiosity and originality.

But even a dimbulb like me knows the difference between farytales and reality.

'nuff said

Re: Consequences of Atheism

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:39 pm
by The Inglorious One
uwot wrote: Did I miss something? Could you direct me to it, Inglorious?
Gustav: "Christianity is a joining and blending of pagan philosophy and humanism and a new relationship of personalism of a quite unique order." Do you think he was talking about something else?

Re:

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 12:15 am
by The Inglorious One
henry quirk wrote:Oh sure...I'm dumb as a brick, plodding in my thinking, and lacking in curiosity and originality.
Well, at least you take Socrates' advice seriously: "Know thyself." :wink:

Re: Consequences of Atheism

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 12:30 am
by Gustav Bjornstrand
Kafka in 'An Old Manuscript' wrote:
"A screeching of jackdaws is always in our ears. Our way of living and our institutions they neither understand nor care to understand. And so they are unwilling to make sense even out of our sign language. You can gesture at them till you dislocate your jaws and your wrists and still they will not have understood you and will never understand."
This quote will appear like an insult but it is not intended as such.

In simple terms, the scientific/materialist project and its new paradigms and predicates, undermined the fable on which classical religious ideation was and is based. Religion had invaded realms of knowledge that it should not have, and yet it was inevitable, and has been an inevitability in all cultures, that this occur. The last 3-400 years has marked a process of vast advances by materialist method (how else to call it?) and a continued retreat of the religious camp back to the only tenable position: God, divinity, whatever one wishes to call it, is essentially an affair of the inner man, and the relationship to a conscious universal being is one of personal attunement within moral, ethical, feeling-level zones of human perception. There has been a colossal shift in how perceiving structures within man have been organised. This is revolutionary change and such has been the last dynamic period, starting roughly in the 17th century.

To trace this history, and these processes, and to understand what happened and how excruciatingly difficult this has been, is essentially the proposal of Willey's book 'The Seventeenth Century Background'. And the whole purpose of bringing it forward was to inspire an honest examination.

And - at least according to Willey in another book by him, 'Christianity Then and Now' - this has certainly been for the best as far as European Christianity is concerned. Why? Because it pushes back the domain of knowledge of God, and relationship to God, into the purely inner zone of the inner man. In this sense the only concern of religion, and of Christianity (which is essentially the unstated focus of these battles), should now be, and perhaps really only is, in what could be called a 'Kierkegaardian' relationship to the entire existential question. Yet it seems very true, at least from where I sit, that you cannot ask that level of personal commitment from anyone, not these days and perhaps never. I am not sure that I have it, though my spiritual life has been vitally relevant and my efforts now are extensions of it.

The conversation on the topic of the retreat of theology from all domains except the inner, moral domain (where else can God be discovered except in the soul, in the spirit, in the heart, in one's existential and living relationship to Life?), is a very interesting conversation. It seems to be both a win and a loss. There is no longer the overarching and inarguable Divine Presence (accepted by all axiomatically, as a given) overseeing the world as there was in late antiquity and the Middle Ages, yet it seems necessary that the toppling of a domination by the Scholastic mind, and a Scholastic power-structure, should have occurred. No one could sanely propose an alternative.

But theology has not abandoned God or divinity nor relationship to the divine, and this relationship in one form or another is now, has been, and will always be part of man's life and his concern. In the upper echelons, religion and religiousness will undergo the revolutions in perspective and will adapt (has adapted largely) to the changes imposed by history and evolution of conceptual structures. It really already has and there is a new(er) face of theology. A large segment, a vast population really, will flounder in a middle-zone because they do not now have and will not likely ever have the conceptual strength to grasp the historical shift, and they will not be able to grasp 'predicates' and 'metaphysics' and how overarching ideas and perception shift, phenomenologically, over time. They may indeed 'lose their religion' but they will gain and become captivated by a wide range of substitute influences. This is something to become aware of: the incapacity of large groups of people to make such dramatic changes without 'guidance'.

Here, on this forum, right now, I suggest that we read the ideas and opinions of people who are really mostly in this middle zone, the zone of the mass and the mass-mind. I would like to believe that some years of university education actually educate, and yet I know better. It does not. It disturbs the fabrics of the inner man, it installs new, partial predicates, it indoctrinates in the sense that Sthita mentioned, and it creates a sort of Walmart Man, this being of course the New World species but Europe most certainly is producing a similar version. Again, when I repeat: 'You can gesture at them till you dislocate your jaws and your wrists and still they will not have understood you and will never understand', this is not cruel sarcasm but a very sad fact of all that has been lost in these battles, the battles of the last 300+ years.

To understand, now, what 'God' means requires a plunging in, it requires an initiation experience, and this is not brought about by talk. Curiously, and I will say this more or less strictly about Christianity, the religiousness that can be said to be 'truly Christian' is in a very similar position as it was at the start of the era: it is seen and understood as a form of madness. To say 'I am in a relationship to a divine potency that is morally remaking me' (which is what one should really say) is, nowadays, a nutty statement. Isn't only madmen who have that sort of 'inner relationship' to *something* that is not material, and that is like a 'voice' they hear? We all know how untenable that sort of 'relationship' can be. Some people have more of an 'inner relationship' with their TV ... but that is another story.

More or less this is what I have gotten out of these 'conversations'. On one side, a near complete inability to grasp what is being talked about, or what might be talked about, and a focus exclusively - and with some justice - on the ground that religion has surrendered. We indeed live in a manifestation of material energies which can be navigated strictly on the basis of our manipulations of that matter. It is entirely possible to live in the conceptual world that *sees* only that and has no other concerns or interests. But when it comes to *higher things* and to upper-echelon levels of meaning, and to meaning in higher senses, and perhaps to 'sensitivity' if it is appropriate to use that word, one enters automatically another domain of activity, and perception.

To conceive a 'world' of meaning as is represented in the play Macbeth, and to feel that, and to live through some process like that, is what I am referring to (though Lear's transformation is perhaps more apt to represent a Christian metanoia and transformation-regeneration, but certainly difficult and painful!) It is an example that is close to hand and so I refer to it. To talk on this level though requires hearers ('eyes' essentially) of a different order. In any case, these are my conclusions, and this is what I take away, largely, from these failures of discourse. But since I am committed to gain even in total failure, it has been pure gain, and for that gain I am thankful.

Re: Consequences of Atheism

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 4:22 am
by sthitapragya
The Inglorious One wrote: Gustav, I really do not understand sthitapragya's dislike for you. Perhaps your clarity poses more of a threat to his established ideas than my 2x4? I don't know.
He is a bigot who never gives a proper answer to any question.

And as far as threat is concerned, it is pretty unidirectional. I have NO issues if God exists. There is no threat to me from God or His existence. My atheism is not something that I wear with pride. It is something that I have. So if you or Gustav can change my mind and make me a believer again, I am cool with it. I have been one for 30 years of my life so it would be nothing new to me. But I will say with a certainty that whatever Gustav's concept of God is, I have already rejected. I could prove it if he could explain with some CLARITY where he has reached in his present conception of God. But the point is I am actually indifferent to the existence or non-existence of God. In fact, if God exists, then it would be pretty cool as I too would have a big daddy looking after me.

If however, God does not exist and if somehow the atheist concept managed to create some doubt in Gustav's mind, I do not think he would be able to psychologically handle it. So let us be clear. The threat is unidirectional. I don't care either way. Gustav and you care very very much one way.

Re: Consequences of Atheism

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 6:44 am
by uwot
Gustav Bjornstrand wrote:...(where else can God be discovered except in the soul, in the spirit, in the heart, in one's existential and living relationship to Life?)
No doubt you have encountered Henry Drummond, Gus. For those who haven't, he is credited with the line of thinking that became known as 'God of the gaps'. The idea is that theists should not claim that god is to be discovered only where science fails to find him. Science at the moment is nowhere near explaining consciousness, a more neutral term for what some theists equate with soul. So: well done, Gus; you've found a secure little hidey-hole in the impenetrable depths of your own 'soul' and your god is safe there. But why so craven? What is this little voice within you? Where is the creator of the universe?
It is entirely possible to be a first rate scientist and believe that what you are examining is the work of some divine agency. It is also possible to be an atheist and accept that might be true; atheism requires only that you do not believe it. Atheism, Gus, does not imply materialism, except in the dismal minds of people, who, goaded by their little god, swing their handbags at straw men.

Re: Consequences of Atheism

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 7:05 am
by The Inglorious One
sthitapragya wrote:
The Inglorious One wrote: Gustav, I really do not understand sthitapragya's dislike for you. Perhaps your clarity poses more of a threat to his established ideas than my 2x4? I don't know.
He is a bigot who never gives a proper answer to any question.
And what, pray tell, is a "proper answer"? A slogan that can be put on a bumper-sticker?

Re: Consequences of Atheism

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 7:42 am
by uwot
The Inglorious One wrote:And what, pray tell, is a "proper answer"? A slogan that can be put on a bumper-sticker?
Well done, Inglorious. You could just about squeeze that onto a bumper sticker; the font would be small, so you'd have to be tight up the arse of the one you are following, but that evidently doesn't bother you.

Re: Consequences of Atheism

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 7:45 am
by The Inglorious One
uwot wrote:
Gustav Bjornstrand wrote:...(where else can God be discovered except in the soul, in the spirit, in the heart, in one's existential and living relationship to Life?)
No doubt you have encountered Henry Drummond, Gus. For those who haven't, he is credited with the line of thinking that became known as 'God of the gaps'. The idea is that theists should not claim that god is to be discovered only where science fails to find him. Science at the moment is nowhere near explaining consciousness, a more neutral term for what some theists equate with soul. So: well done, Gus; you've found a secure little hidey-hole in the impenetrable depths of your own 'soul' and your god is safe there. But why so craven? What is this little voice within you? Where is the creator of the universe?
It is entirely possible to be a first rate scientist and believe that what you are examining is the work of some divine agency. It is also possible to be an atheist and accept that might be true; atheism requires only that you do not believe it. Atheism, Gus, does not imply materialism, except in the dismal minds of people, who, goaded by their little god, swing their handbags at straw men.
How does "God in the gaps" apply to a God that can only "be discovered in the soul, in the spirit, in the heart, in one's existential and living relationship to Life one's existential and living relationship to Life"?

And if atheism does not imply materialism, what does it imply? "Chance in the gaps"? (A line from Paul Davies)

Your post, uwot, is a perfect example for why I have such contempt for the atheistic mindset. It takes a very tiny mind, indeed, to ask: "What is this little voice within you? Where is the creator of the universe?"
We are more and more to discuss details in art, politics, literature. A man’s opinion on tram cars matters; his opinion on Botticelli matters; his opinion on all things does not matter. He may turn over and explore a million objects, but he must not find that strange object, the universe; for if he does he will have a religion, and be lost. Everything matters — except everything. -- G. K. Chesterton

Re: Consequences of Atheism

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:15 am
by uwot
The Inglorious One wrote:How does "God in the gaps" apply to a God that can only "be discovered in the soul, in the spirit, in the heart, in one's existential and living relationship to Life one's existential and living relationship to Life"?
Because:
I wrote:Science at the moment is nowhere near explaining consciousness, a more neutral term for what some theists equate with soul. So: well done, Gus; you've found a secure little hidey-hole in the impenetrable depths of your own 'soul' and your god is safe there.
You ask:
The Inglorious One wrote:What...you don't read your own posts? :shock:
Clearly you don't read them.
The Inglorious One wrote:And if atheism does not imply materialism, what does it imply? "Chance in the gaps"? (A line from Paul Davies)
I suspect you are using 'materialism' in the vernacular. Fair enough; let me qualify: Atheism doesn't imply philosophical materialism.
The Inglorious One wrote:Your post, uwot, is a perfect example for why I have such contempt for the atheistic mindset. It takes a very tiny mind, indeed, to ask: "What is this little voice within you? Where is the creator of the universe?"
Can you support that assertion with an argument?
We are more and more to discuss details in art, politics, literature. A man’s opinion on tram cars matters; his opinion on Botticelli matters; his opinion on all things does not matter. He may turn over and explore a million objects, but he must not find that strange object, the universe; for if he does he will have a religion, and be lost. Everything matters — except everything. -- G. K. Chesterton
I have studied the universe in some depth, Inglorious; you might be interested in some of my findings: http://willibouwman.blogspot.co.uk/ As I said:
I wrote:It is entirely possible to be a first rate scientist and believe that what you are examining is the work of some divine agency. It is also possible to be an atheist and accept that might be true; atheism requires only that you do not believe it.

Re: Consequences of Atheism

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 9:15 am
by sthitapragya
The Inglorious One wrote:
sthitapragya wrote:
The Inglorious One wrote: Gustav, I really do not understand sthitapragya's dislike for you. Perhaps your clarity poses more of a threat to his established ideas than my 2x4? I don't know.
He is a bigot who never gives a proper answer to any question.
And what, pray tell, is a "proper answer"? A slogan that can be put on a bumper-sticker?
What has any of that got to do with you? You wanted to know why I have a problem with Gustav. I told you. The rest of it is none of your business. Unless you are related or married.