Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?

[Obvious Leo]

Poverty is almost exclusively an accident of birth. What choice does anybody have in that?

[henry quirk]

"Poverty is almost exclusively an accident of birth."

Sure, but kids grow up.

Tend to children...let adults tend to themselves.

[Obvious Leo]

Tend to children...let adults tend to themselves.

I'm inclined to agree with this as a matter of general principle but the devil always lies in the detail. How do we go about tending to the rights and opportunities of children in such a way that they will grow up to be adults able to make a real and beneficial contribution to their own well-being and to the well-being of society in general? Not for one moment do I suggest that this question is amenable to a quick and easy solution but do you really believe that in our modern societies this question is even being adequately addressed? How can a society fix such a problem without first acknowledging that such a problem exists?

[Wyman]

"Poverty is almost exclusively an accident of birth."

Sure, but kids grow up.

Tend to children...let adults tend to themselves.

And when I make money after a lifetime of work and want to give it to my children and grandchildren? That won't be an 'accident,' it will mean they are part of a successful family. As soon as the ultra liberals pass laws to get their paws on that money, I'll spend it or move to another country.

[Skip]

China?

Seriously, does nobody really see what is wrong with this picture? It's my money. They don't have it, because they made the poor choice of being born a descendant of the slaves imported by my great-------granddaddy to work his plantation [Indian land granted to him by the king of England] that made him rich and powerful and influential in policy-making. Of course, great-------granddaddy had the right to pass his wealth on to his legitimate [light-skinned] children, while passing his short fat genes on to his unacknowledged [dark-skinned] children, so they can't get out of poverty by playing basketball - well, that's their fault, innit?

Systemic privilege perpetuates itself, its inequities and its instability.

[henry quirk]

Leo,

The most direct way to enact change is to cut access to the teat.

Whole whack of folks out there would suddenly find their gumption (their will for self-preservation) if they knew for a fact that (for example) one year from today all the safety nets they rely on would cease to be. Hunger (actual and potential) is a powerful motivator to get a body off its ass and moving.

I suggest not a quick solution or a clean one, but simply a sure solution.

Would kids fall through the cracks? Yep, but no more than do now after billions (or is it trillions?) have been spent to defeat poverty and inequity and whatnot.

My solution won't cost diddly ('cept for the gun and bullets you'll need to fend off the few hardcore parasites that will not do for themselves).

#

Wyman,

Start makin' your plans today cuz -- sure as shit -- the communitarians (Left and Right) will try to get a'hold of what's yours (beyond what they already claim) tomorrow.

[Skip]

Leo,

The most direct way to enact change is to cut access to the teat.

Whole whack of folks out there would suddenly find their gumption (their will for self-preservation) if they knew for a fact that (for example) one year from today all the safety nets they rely on would cease to be. Hunger (actual and potential) is a powerful motivator to get a body off its ass and moving.

Like they did in France, Russia and China? You nailed it!

Obviously, this attitude contains the assumption that poor people live in some other country; that they are not your fellow citizens in a democratic, egalitarian republic. It's based on the assumption that the nation and its government are wholly owned by the moneyed classes, who have to power of all decisions, political and economic. This has been a fact for some time. It is this fact that created the grotesque disparity for which you now blame its victims.

The funniest part is, the armed enforcers and protectors on whom you depend to defend your assets against the economically dispossesses are increasingly drawn from those classes. You've armed them. How much do you trust them?

[Dalek Prime]

Meh, never mind.

[henry quirk]

In the US there's the advantage of having a decent economy to work with. My suggestion could be phased in over a year or five with minimal economic fuss.

France, China, Russia: crapped out economies from god-awful stretches of commie benevolence. When those folks were turned out it was sudden and unplanned.

No worries, though...no way my suggestion will ever be adopted. No, the US will continue on with the fewer supporting the greater...eventually, the fewer will be too few and the greater will be too great and then America will join its sister nations in bankruptcy and the poor (without preparation) will have to fend for themselves.

Hey, I'm good with that...whatever 'the people' want, right?

[henry quirk]

I trust no one, and, ain't seen a single defender lift a finger for me.

I defend me.

As for the powerless many: nuthin' stopping a single one from exercising him- or her-self and making work if they can't find it.

That's what I did and if I can then any one can.

Self-preservation stands independent of what the rich and powerful do.

But: if great whacks of people choose to live as slaves...*shrug*...who am I to judge?

They still can't have what's mine, however.

[Hobbes' Choice]

Capitalism is an economic mechanism that encourages profit.
It promotes downwards pressure on wages, increasing mechanisation and consequent unemployment leading to increasing downwards pressure on wages. It also leads to the polarisation of wealth and the loss of property rights by the peasantry, within increasingly large farms, land grabs and the deprivation of land access to the masses in favour large land ownership.

Left unchallenged and without controls the inevitable consequence is self destructive, with loss of demand through lower wages, and a smaller number of rich people concentrating a larger amount of capital amongst a smaller group.

There are current moves afoot TTIP, TTP, that will now remove the ability of nation states to make economic laws. Corporations are now acquiring the power to overrule sovereign law.THIS IS HAPPENING NOW.

Fuck yes, we have the right to tax to re-distribute wealth, but this right will soon be lost under corporate power.

[Wyman]

China?

Seriously, does nobody really see what is wrong with this picture? It's my money. They don't have it, because they made the poor choice of being born a descendant of the slaves imported by my great-------granddaddy to work his plantation [Indian land granted to him by the king of England] that made him rich and powerful and influential in policy-making. Of course, great-------granddaddy had the right to pass his wealth on to his legitimate [light-skinned] children, while passing his short fat genes on to his unacknowledged [dark-skinned] children, so they can't get out of poverty by playing basketball - well, that's their fault, innit?

Systemic privilege perpetuates itself, its inequities and its instability.

We all came from Africa originally. How far back does your blame-game go?

[Skip]

400 years will do, as far as the US is concerned - and I want the "we all" that came from Africa sorted by voluntary and involuntary immigrants. It's not an event I'm talking about; it's a history that has not yet ended.

My blame game. Cute, but crap.

[Wyman]

400 years will do, as far as the US is concerned - and I want the "we all" that came from Africa sorted by voluntary and involuntary immigrants. It's not an event I'm talking about; it's a history that has not yet ended.

My blame game. Cute, but crap.

That's convenient. What if I want to go back 1000 years? I had a great great great great grandfather who got screwed over by a dishonest Arab and I want justice.

[Skip]

What if I want to go back 1000 years?

Now that's convenient. If you live in the United States, your economy is built on slavery. Your political system is structured on the very same privilege and the very same systemic discrimination, in voting, in housing, in employment, in education and in law and its enforcement. It's not going away, just because you falsify it, deny it, or trivialize it.

I had a great great great great grandfather who got screwed over by a dishonest Arab and I want justice.

Be careful what you ask for! Most of the people I'm talking about can prove their case.
(Besides, haven't you guys brutalized enough Arabs to go 'round?)