Philosophy Now Forum

Immanuel Can wrote:Oh, I see...You're mixing up the question, "Is it possible for an Atheist to convince himself of a 'meaning'?" and the question, "Does an actual 'meaning' exist?" They're different questions.

No, this is your strawman as you already think that the Atheist's meaning is a false one. Meanings exist because we are meaning-makers all the Atheist believes is that there is no 'God', whilst the nihilist believes that there is no 'God' and no meaning from the universe, mainly 'moral' meaning in most cases. So the Atheist needs no convincing of the fact that there is meaning in the world, it's just not provided by a 'God'. If you mean by 'actual meaning' that there is just one meaning existing then this atheist and nihilist would have to say no, there's lots but they're just not provided by a 'God'.

The answer to the former is "Of course: Atheist can convince themselves of anything they want -- that they can flap their arms and fly, or that black is white, or that the world is flat." ...

Or they could believe there's a great sky-father in the sky and they are going to 'heaven' when they die.

But the answer the latter is "No, according to Atheism itself."

Wrong, according to Atheism itself there is no 'God', that's it.

To duck this conclusion, some Atheists talk about "making meaning" in life. However, this has to be quite different from "finding meaning." For "finding" can only happen if the thing to be "found" already exists. In contrast, one can "make," or rather "make up" anything one wants to imagine, no matter how illusory or irrational.

But the theist 'finds' no meaning in life, it's given lock, stock and pen by the shepherd. Whereas the atheist has to find meaning in their actions and existence.

Atheists can "make meaning." They cannot "find meaning." And that is by definition of their own non-belief in any entity capable of establishing a pre-existing, real meaning. Then the meaning they "make" stands only for them personally, lasts only as long as they do, and dies completely with them; for there is nothing but themselves to establish, continue or assert it after they are gone.

Of course there is, their children, their achievements, etc, etc. The theist by-and-large has their 'meaning' foisted upon them before they can reason and pretty much never 'finds' it but often loses it, hence all the angry ex-theists about the place. Still, 'find', 'make' all pretty much of a much when it is us who create meaning in the universe. Of course I stand to be corrected so look forward to the theist showing me their 'God' so I can believe as well.

What no Atheist has been able to explain to me is how "made meaning" is any sort of advance on raw delusion.

Any more delusional than having a big sky father in the sky and a life after death to go to?

In fact, delusion is the very thing Atheist optimism seems inevitably to be. For both delusions and "made meanings" are mere sociological phenomena with no referent in reality, a sort of imaginary ephemera. They "exist" only in the imagination of the one cherishing them. And they fail to correspond to reality outside the individual's imagination.

Show me your 'God'?

Who said an atheist has to be optimistic but then why can't they be? Just because you find it impossible to step outside of your indoctrination and find it inconceivable to be able to live without your comfort-blanket?

But I thought Atheism was supposed to be a hard-nosed facing of "reality," a courageous "staring into the Abyss," a contempt for illusions, a proclamation of freedom from objective values, and a virile refusal of all "false consolations"? That's how they sell themselves, anyway.

No that's pretty much the Nietzschean nihilists and the angry ex-theists. And it's not a freedom from objective values but a freedom from 'God' imposed ones normally imposed by those of the cloth.

Yet I have not met one who does not, at the end of the day, fudge his Nihilism and cling to some consolation incompatible with this Atheism, because the Abyss is simply too dark for a human being to live with.

Which abyss are you talking about? There are loads of consolations in life and none of them are incompatible with not believing in a 'God'.

That's a telling criticism of Atheism, I think: it's only livable when it's inconsistent.

Where is it inconsistent? All it says is 'I don't believe in your 'God''?

But the Atheist escape from meaningless raises another interesting question: if it's true that no such thing as "meaning" actually has a referent in external reality, how is it that we humans so universally seem to desire meaning? How is it even POSSIBLE to come to desire -- or even to conceive of -- an abstract concept so overwhelmingly necessary, yet that has no corresponding reality at all?

I think it's because we have Language. Although I think you are wrong that meaning has no referent in reality as its that there is an external reality that Logic exists and hence there is something to talk about.

henry quirk wrote:... I see nihilism as life-rejecting, ...

Can't see how?

while I 'live' (no matter how transitory or objectively meaningless it may be)...

Sounds like a nihilist to me?

how can I do any other thing? ...

Sounds like a nihilist who's moved on to me, an optimistic nihilist?

Arising_uk wrote:you already think that the Atheist's meaning is a false one.

No. I can see quite clearly that "meaning" cannot be true or false by an Atheist account. "Meaning" is not a real property of the universe, if Atheism is true. This has nothing to do with "straw men," unless you mean that Atheists are made of straw. It's analytical in Atheism itself, not something I'm attributing to Atheists. I'm making an ontological claim, not a mere sociological observation.

Meanings exist because we are meaning-makers.

Now you're mistaking the statement, "A belief in X exists" for a justification that "X exists." If that were a rational way to argue, then it would follow that all imaginary projections would be real (which I presume you realize would undermine Atheism, since you believe God to be one of these imaginary projections of the human desire for "meanings"). You're stumbling over a mere sociological observation (i.e. that there happen to be people called Atheists who believe meaning exists), and mixing it with the unwarranted conclusion, "Therefore, meaning actually does exist."

This is such lame reasoning that I can fully concede your first claim (i.e. that Atheists irrationally love making up meanings) without adding a stitch of credibility to the second claim (that such meanings actually exist). Belief doesn't make things true.

Or are you merely being obtuse? Because surely that last statement a pretty obvious truth, don't you think? I would imagine any real Atheist would consider it indisputable.

So the Atheist needs no convincing of the fact that there is meaning in the world,

Yes, I said so. But I also pointed out that he's not acting in concert with Atheism when he believes it. He's fooled himself that his delusory "meanings" are somehow made real by the power of his own believing. He has no logical warrant from Atheism itself for "meaning."

according to Atheism itself there is no 'God', that's it.

Yes, I've said that too. But then, Atheism itself does not entail the additional claim, "yet meaning still exists." That's not a premise of Atheism, just as you say. Atheism is no more than a negating of the claim of the existence of God(s). It has no opinion on meaning.

So then, where are you drawing your additional claim, "Meaning exists?" It's clearly not from your Atheism.

Whereas the atheist has to find meaning in their actions and existence.

Analytically, it is impossible to "find" what does not exist. That's basic dictionary stuff. So they don't "find" it. Some of them may "claim" it, but they do so with no warrant from Atheism, just as you pointed out above.

Show me your 'God'?

Red herring. That's not the topic of the strand. We're talking about what Atheists themselves can believe about death, not what any of their detractors can. Do another strand called "Theists in Foxholes," if you want to go there.

according to Atheism itself there is no 'God', that's it.

Yes, I've said that too. But then, Atheism itself does not entail the additional claim, "yet meaning still exists." That's not a premise of Atheism, just as you say. Atheism is no more than a negating of the claim of the existence of God(s). It has no opinion on meaning.

So then, where are you drawing your additional claim, "Meaning exists?" It's clearly not from your Atheism.

I think he's got you there. But I don't say so in a confrontational manner. I think you do have beliefs that you justify in some way other than as a negation of theism. I would like to hear from you and other atheists what some of your positive beliefs are and how you justify them.

(I realize I'm butting in on a very good conversation, so I won't take it personally if you ignore my request)

Doc,

“bury them where they won't be found, at least till the day after tomorrow”

If you do it right they won’t ever be found.

##

A_uk,

Technically, according to the dictionary, I guess I am nihilistic. However, I associate nihilism with despair and stasis, with wallowing and depression. Most of the self-described nihilists I’ve run across were lazy morons who – it seemed – embraced nihilism cuz it validated their ennui and stasis. As I don’t despair, am not static, do not wallow, and am not depressed, I find it hard to synchronize ‘me’ with nihilism.

As I say: it may just be a matter of (idiosyncratic) definition.

##

Wyman,

“what some of your positive beliefs are and how you justify them.”

My primary motivator, now, is raising my nephew and the foundation for that is my love for the boy.

Is this a positive? I guess so, though, as I say up-thread, I’m not really interested in the ‘up and down’ of what I do.

That any of it ‘matters’ (in some moral, universal, absolute sense) is unimportant to me.

Mannie sez I have no logical reason for investing value (meaning) into any-thing or –one since, as an atheist, I have no grounding for such investment.

I submit, then: I am an unruly, unreasonable, irrational, unphilosophical, animal who insists on prizing my self (nuthin’) and certain others (also nuthin’).

I’m good with this.

Wyman wrote:I realize I'm butting in on a very good conversation, so I won't take it personally if you ignore my request)

Not at all. You're most welcome. We are not "the only wise men," and to quote the old aphorism, "wisdom will not die with us."

Wyman to A-uk wrote:I think you do have beliefs that you justify in some way other than as a negation of theism. I would like to hear from you and other atheists what some of your positive beliefs are and how you justify them.

I thought that was a really good question, Wyman. But it's gone quiet.

I hear nothing but crickets, at the moment.

Immanuel Can wrote:

Wyman to A-uk wrote:I think you do have beliefs that you justify in some way other than as a negation of theism. I would like to hear from you and other atheists what some of your positive beliefs are and how you justify them.

I thought that was a really good question, Wyman. But it's gone quiet.

I hear nothing but crickets, at the moment.

On a warm summer evening it's soothing to sit out and listen to the crickets, and other critters, it's not as quiet as you might think.

*chirp*

Dalek Prime wrote:*chirp*

Did you know that the frequency of a cricket's chirping is based on the ambient temperature? There is supposed to be a formula where you count the chirps in a particular length of time, add a particular number, and it gives you the temperature in Fahrenheit.

So only one chirp would indicate that it is pretty cold where you are.

It's actually quite muggy in Toronto.

*chirp chirp chirp chirp*

Dalek Prime wrote:It's actually quite muggy in Toronto.

*chirp chirp chirp chirp*

Things are warming up.

I just sold a couple of items to a person in Toronto, but I understand that Toronto is a big city, and the chances of you knowing this person would be an extreme coincidence.

Would be very coincidental indeed.

Still no replies to Wyman's question?

Hellooooooo? Is there anyone out theeeeerrrreeeee?

Wyman to A-uk wrote:I think you do have beliefs that you justify in some way other than as a negation of theism. I would like to hear from you and other atheists what some of your positive beliefs are and how you justify them.

As far as I am concerned I try to avoid belief where ever I can.
Knowledge is not a matter of choice. In my experience those who claim to "believe" a thing, do so out of choice, and not through reason and evidence.

This describes me as a Skeptic. My atheism has basically nothing to do with it, as all that means about me is that I do not accept a belief in God. This is perhaps why I did not previously see it as a question I needed to answer.


Sapere Aude!