New Discovery

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Belinda
Posts: 10548
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: New Discovery

Post by Belinda »

peacegirl wrote: Sun Sep 21, 2025 9:18 pm Peacegirl wrote:

-- a local columnist interested in my ideas, so he called them, made the statement that I believe that man should not be blamed for anything he does, which is true only when man knows what it means that his will is not free. If he doesn’t know, he is compelled to blame by his very nature. Christ also received incursions of thought from this same principle, which compelled him to turn the other cheek and remark as he was being nailed to the cross, “They know not what they do,” forgiving his enemies even in the moment of death. How was it possible for him to blame them when he knew that they were not responsible?
Belinda wrote:The more a man reasons the more his 'will' is free. Jesus on the cross was reasoning correctly despite his suffering. True freedom is aligning oneself as much as one can with truth ; reason is our guide to truth
It is true that reason is our guide to truth, but you are talking about a different kind of freedom than what "free will" means in this debate. If people can't define words where there is a common denominator, it's no wonder progress will never be made. People just switch the definition and voila, we are talking at each other, not to each other :roll:

The dictionary defines free will as the power of self-determination, regarded as a special faculty that enables one to choose good and evil without compulsion or necessity. Made, done, or given of one’s own free choice; voluntary. But this is only part of the definition since it is implied that man can be held responsible, blamed and punished for doing what is considered wrong or evil since it is believed he could have chosen otherwise. In other words, it is believed that man has the ability to do other than what he does if he wants to and therefore can be held responsible for doing what he is not supposed to do. These very words reveal the fallacy of this belief to those who have mathematical perception.
I accept what "the dictionary" says.
I also accept that I am talking about a different kind of freedom from absolute 'free will' . I maintain that absolute free will does not exist.It was not absolute free will that enabled Jesus on the cross to forgive his enemies---it was reason. "they know not what they do"

The principle of 'They know not what they do' is the principle that a liberal judge appeals to when she cites extenuating circumstances. Jesus took the principle to the extreme when, across the board , he forgave his enemies while he died at their hands.
Walker
Posts: 16383
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: New Discovery

Post by Walker »

Belinda wrote: Mon Sep 22, 2025 9:15 am
That’s one of those paradoxes of life.

One always does what one has to do (determinism), and one is also responsible for what one does.

*

Re: the murderer of Charles Kirk.

Imagine his hell, locked in his cell, locked in his mind, nowhere to run to anymore, nowhere to hide, completely alone and now outside of humanity ... given comfort by the widow’s forgiveness, but never again trusted around human beings.

Why is he not trusted? Other people in society kill, and they are trusted.

Answer: The trusted ones are fulfilling a role defined and limited by circumstance, and sanctioned by society, e.g., cops, military, executioners. The murderer is not sanctioned by society.

Imagine the widow’s conflict in forgiving the murderer.

Imagine the effect of forgiveness for those who can’t forgive but follow the rules of Christianity and eventually, do personally forgive. That’s the faith. The promise of the faith, at least in part, is that forgiveness brings peace of mind, which is heaven on earth. And seeing that other than as a concept eternity can only exist in the here and now, well there you have it. Eternal life.
Age
Posts: 27841
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: New Discovery

Post by Age »

Walker wrote: Mon Sep 22, 2025 10:14 am
Belinda wrote: Mon Sep 22, 2025 9:15 am
That’s one of those paradoxes of life.

One always does what one has to do (determinism), and one is also responsible for what one does.

*
So, what is 'it' that you imagine is 'the paradox', here, exactly?

And, what does the word, 'paradox', even mean and/or is referring to, to you, exactly?
Walker wrote: Mon Sep 22, 2025 10:14 am Re: the murderer of Charles Kirk.

Imagine his hell, locked in his cell, locked in his mind, nowhere to run to anymore, nowhere to hide, completely alone and now outside of humanity ... given comfort by the widow’s forgiveness, but never again trusted around human beings.
So, the reason why you adult human beings are absolutely unable to 'trust' each other is because of so-called 'determinism', itself.

And, what are any of you really worried or concern about anyway, if some, so-called, "he" created all of 'you', and 'you' are all doing, exactly, what "he" wanted or 'determined' would happen, then 'that one' called "charlie kirk" was always pre-determined to be shot and killed in 'the way' that it did, and because of the very words that it was saying and using.

Imagine all of 'your' hell, locked in your cells, locked in your thoughts/beliefs, nowhere to run to anymore, nowhere to hide, completely alone and now outside of 'humanity', itself, given comfort by no one nor nothing, (as 'determinism') has absolute control over all of you, (or, 'this' is exactly what some of you believe is absolutely true), and so never again can any of you be trusted around each other.

Because absolutely none of you 'know' what was pre-determined to happen, 'to you'.
Walker wrote: Mon Sep 22, 2025 10:14 am Why is he not trusted? Other people in society kill, and they are trusted.

Answer: The trusted ones are fulfilling a role defined and limited by circumstance, and sanctioned by society, e.g., cops, military, executioners. The murderer is not sanctioned by society.
But, the "other murderers" can be less trusted, because 'they' have given them some 'self-proclaimed right' to be able to control 'over' and murder you other human beings. you know, you ones who are 'under' the control of others.
Walker wrote: Mon Sep 22, 2025 10:14 am Imagine the widow’s conflict in forgiving the murderer.
Imagine how far behind people like 'this one' was, back when this was being written.

Obviously 'those', like 'this one', had not yet learned nor understood, exactly, why every one does what they do.

If that "widow" is in some so-called 'conflict' for just 'forgiving', the, obviously, that "widow", still, has a lot, lot more to learn, and understand, here.
Walker wrote: Mon Sep 22, 2025 10:14 am Imagine the effect of forgiveness for those who can’t forgive but follow the rules of Christianity and eventually, do personally forgive.
The effect would just be how all of you adult human beings are living in and with now, that is just 'conflict', and, 'confusion'.
Walker wrote: Mon Sep 22, 2025 10:14 am That’s the faith. The promise of the faith, at least in part, is that forgiveness brings peace of mind, which is heaven on earth.
So, 'this one' is now 'trying to' claim that being in conflict and confusion brings so-called 'peace of mind', and it is this conflict and confusion which is, supposedly, 'heaven on earth'.

And, they wondered why they took so, so long to achieve and get just 'that', which they all Truly wanted and desired.
Walker wrote: Mon Sep 22, 2025 10:14 am And seeing that other than as a concept eternity can only exist in the here and now, well there you have it. Eternal life.
Is 'that 'eternal life' of murdering, and not trusting, each other?
Walker
Posts: 16383
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: New Discovery

Post by Walker »

Age wrote: Mon Sep 22, 2025 10:34 am re: conflict and confusion ...
The act* of forgiveness requires a public declaration to be real. The inner must become the outer. The widow made a very public declaration of forgiveness. Making it real, made it real to her, regardless of whether or not she was in doubt before the declaration broadcast to the many close by, and listening. This would be the effect of following the rules of Christianity and being changed by those rules.

*action defines choice
peacegirl
Posts: 883
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:02 pm

Re: New Discovery

Post by peacegirl »

Phil8659 wrote: Mon Sep 22, 2025 3:45 am
peacegirl wrote: Mon Sep 22, 2025 3:25 am
Phil8659 wrote: Mon Sep 22, 2025 2:58 am

There you go again with your gibberish. Where did I ever intimate that literacy, the art of reasoning, was some animated pooka? You are constantly displaying your primitive sociopathic personality. Who but a merchant would even think of copywriting work which is aimed at human improvement, and who but an idiot thinks that mankind is not wholly responsible for using their resources?
You are a mental wasteland.

Look at your screen name, ego centric. A mind is an evolving life support system, it is not an individual with delusions of grandeur.

No one teaches anybody anything, we can only add to the environment making it possible for people to change themselves. Like I said, we learn how to reshape the environment, either physically or intelligibly, according to our own ability.

Only a fool expects someone to make someone else this or that.
You don’t impress me. I have no desire to defend myself for your approval! 🙄
There you go again with your gibberish. I do not give a flying fuck about impressing a dim wit. I only say, that only a dim wit actually believes that the grammar is to be used for an imagined personal gain. I like your emogi, I was once five years old myself. I already know that actual study and hard work is not your forte.
I don't even know how to respond to you, so I won't.
Last edited by peacegirl on Mon Sep 22, 2025 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
peacegirl
Posts: 883
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:02 pm

Re: New Discovery

Post by peacegirl »

Belinda wrote: Mon Sep 22, 2025 9:15 am
peacegirl wrote: Sun Sep 21, 2025 9:18 pm Peacegirl wrote:

-- a local columnist interested in my ideas, so he called them, made the statement that I believe that man should not be blamed for anything he does, which is true only when man knows what it means that his will is not free. If he doesn’t know, he is compelled to blame by his very nature. Christ also received incursions of thought from this same principle, which compelled him to turn the other cheek and remark as he was being nailed to the cross, “They know not what they do,” forgiving his enemies even in the moment of death. How was it possible for him to blame them when he knew that they were not responsible?
Belinda wrote:The more a man reasons the more his 'will' is free. Jesus on the cross was reasoning correctly despite his suffering. True freedom is aligning oneself as much as one can with truth ; reason is our guide to truth
It is true that reason is our guide to truth, but you are talking about a different kind of freedom than what "free will" means in this debate. If people can't define words where there is a common denominator, it's no wonder progress will never be made. People just switch the definition and voila, we are talking at each other, not to each other :roll:

The dictionary defines free will as the power of self-determination, regarded as a special faculty that enables one to choose good and evil without compulsion or necessity. Made, done, or given of one’s own free choice; voluntary. But this is only part of the definition since it is implied that man can be held responsible, blamed and punished for doing what is considered wrong or evil since it is believed he could have chosen otherwise. In other words, it is believed that man has the ability to do other than what he does if he wants to and therefore can be held responsible for doing what he is not supposed to do. These very words reveal the fallacy of this belief to those who have mathematical perception.
I accept what "the dictionary" says.
I also accept that I am talking about a different kind of freedom from absolute 'free will' . I maintain that absolute free will does not exist.It was not absolute free will that enabled Jesus on the cross to forgive his enemies---it was reason. "they know not what they do"

The principle of 'They know not what they do' is the principle that a liberal judge appeals to when she cites extenuating circumstances. Jesus took the principle to the extreme when, across the board , he forgave his enemies while he died at their hands.
That was not the point he was making. He was making the point that forgiving his enemies did nothing to stop them. He wrote that for "a reason," but you wouldn't know what the reason was because you have not read further to see where it leads.
peacegirl
Posts: 883
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:02 pm

Re: New Discovery

Post by peacegirl »

Walker wrote: Mon Sep 22, 2025 10:14 am
Belinda wrote: Mon Sep 22, 2025 9:15 am
That’s one of those paradoxes of life.

One always does what one has to do (determinism), and one is also responsible for what one does.

*

Re: the murderer of Charles Kirk.

Imagine his hell, locked in his cell, locked in his mind, nowhere to run to anymore, nowhere to hide, completely alone and now outside of humanity ... given comfort by the widow’s forgiveness, but never again trusted around human beings.

Why is he not trusted? Other people in society kill, and they are trusted.

Answer: The trusted ones are fulfilling a role defined and limited by circumstance, and sanctioned by society, e.g., cops, military, executioners. The murderer is not sanctioned by society.

Imagine the widow’s conflict in forgiving the murderer.

Imagine the effect of forgiveness for those who can’t forgive but follow the rules of Christianity and eventually, do personally forgive. That’s the faith. The promise of the faith, at least in part, is that forgiveness brings peace of mind, which is heaven on earth. And seeing that other than as a concept eternity can only exist in the here and now, well there you have it. Eternal life.
Yes, that's the faith and it is wonderful. He was never saying that we should abandon forgiveness. The promise of heaven on earth though is the belief that doing good is not doing good for its own sake. Regardless of this issue, why in the world would you bring up the horrible assassination of Charles KirK? This thread has gone off the beaten track. If anyone wants to continue, it needs to be brought back to the original purpose.
Belinda
Posts: 10548
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: New Discovery

Post by Belinda »

peacegirl wrote: Mon Sep 22, 2025 11:59 am
Belinda wrote: Mon Sep 22, 2025 9:15 am
peacegirl wrote: Sun Sep 21, 2025 9:18 pm Peacegirl wrote:

-- a local columnist interested in my ideas, so he called them, made the statement that I believe that man should not be blamed for anything he does, which is true only when man knows what it means that his will is not free. If he doesn’t know, he is compelled to blame by his very nature. Christ also received incursions of thought from this same principle, which compelled him to turn the other cheek and remark as he was being nailed to the cross, “They know not what they do,” forgiving his enemies even in the moment of death. How was it possible for him to blame them when he knew that they were not responsible?



It is true that reason is our guide to truth, but you are talking about a different kind of freedom than what "free will" means in this debate. If people can't define words where there is a common denominator, it's no wonder progress will never be made. People just switch the definition and voila, we are talking at each other, not to each other :roll:

The dictionary defines free will as the power of self-determination, regarded as a special faculty that enables one to choose good and evil without compulsion or necessity. Made, done, or given of one’s own free choice; voluntary. But this is only part of the definition since it is implied that man can be held responsible, blamed and punished for doing what is considered wrong or evil since it is believed he could have chosen otherwise. In other words, it is believed that man has the ability to do other than what he does if he wants to and therefore can be held responsible for doing what he is not supposed to do. These very words reveal the fallacy of this belief to those who have mathematical perception.
I accept what "the dictionary" says.
I also accept that I am talking about a different kind of freedom from absolute 'free will' . I maintain that absolute free will does not exist.It was not absolute free will that enabled Jesus on the cross to forgive his enemies---it was reason. "they know not what they do"

The principle of 'They know not what they do' is the principle that a liberal judge appeals to when she cites extenuating circumstances. Jesus took the principle to the extreme when, across the board , he forgave his enemies while he died at their hands.
That was not the point he was making. He was making the point that forgiving his enemies did nothing to stop them. He wrote that for "a reason," but you wouldn't know what the reason was because you have not read further to see where it leads.
If the "he" you refer to is Jesus of Nazareth, yours is an odd idea. Jesus did not aim to stop his enemies --"Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's". In other words Jesus was subject to Caesar but his soul was his own and God's.
peacegirl
Posts: 883
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:02 pm

Re: New Discovery

Post by peacegirl »

Belinda wrote: Mon Sep 22, 2025 1:07 pm
peacegirl wrote: Mon Sep 22, 2025 11:59 am
Belinda wrote: Mon Sep 22, 2025 9:15 am
I accept what "the dictionary" says.
I also accept that I am talking about a different kind of freedom from absolute 'free will' . I maintain that absolute free will does not exist.It was not absolute free will that enabled Jesus on the cross to forgive his enemies---it was reason. "they know not what they do"

The principle of 'They know not what they do' is the principle that a liberal judge appeals to when she cites extenuating circumstances. Jesus took the principle to the extreme when, across the board , he forgave his enemies while he died at their hands.
That was not the point he was making. He was making the point that forgiving his enemies did nothing to stop them. He wrote that for "a reason," but you wouldn't know what the reason was because you have not read further to see where it leads.
If the "he" you refer to is Jesus of Nazareth, yours is an odd idea. Jesus did not aim to stop his enemies --"Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's". In other words Jesus was subject to Caesar but his soul was his own and God's.
That still does not address the point Lessans was making. I am not here to discuss Christianity which you seem to be stuck on. I am sorry about that because I am not arguing your point of view regarding Jesuses' forgiveness or why he forgave. You are taking this excerpt out of context by making it more than it is and are expanding it into territories that he never intended.
peacegirl
Posts: 883
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:02 pm

Re: New Discovery

Post by peacegirl »

Walker wrote: Mon Sep 22, 2025 10:14 am
Belinda wrote: Mon Sep 22, 2025 9:15 am
That’s one of those paradoxes of life.

One always does what one has to do (determinism), and one is also responsible for what one does.

*

Re: the murderer of Charles Kirk.

Imagine his hell, locked in his cell, locked in his mind, nowhere to run to anymore, nowhere to hide, completely alone and now outside of humanity ... given comfort by the widow’s forgiveness, but never again trusted around human beings.

Why is he not trusted? Other people in society kill, and they are trusted.

Answer: The trusted ones are fulfilling a role defined and limited by circumstance, and sanctioned by society, e.g., cops, military, executioners. The murderer is not sanctioned by society.

Imagine the widow’s conflict in forgiving the murderer.

Imagine the effect of forgiveness for those who can’t forgive but follow the rules of Christianity and eventually, do personally forgive. That’s the faith. The promise of the faith, at least in part, is that forgiveness brings peace of mind, which is heaven on earth. And seeing that other than as a concept eternity can only exist in the here and now, well there you have it. Eternal life.
I agree that eternity can only exist in the here and now. Forgiving the murderer is the hallmark of Christianity: to love your enemies, but imagine a world in which forgiveness is no longer necessary when there is nothing left to forgive. Just imagine!!!
Last edited by peacegirl on Mon Sep 22, 2025 3:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Atla
Posts: 9936
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: New Discovery

Post by Atla »

Let's have an AI restate the obvious, because why not:
Atla KG wrote:Let us posit a form of psychological determinism where everyone always does what is most satisfactory for him/her. If people knew that they won't be blamed for their crimes because they lack free will and couldn't have done otherwise, would their conscience stop them from committing crimes?
God wrote: This is a rich philosophical question that touches on psychological determinism, moral responsibility, conscience, and deterrence. Let's unpack it carefully.

1. Restating the Premise

You’re positing:

Psychological determinism: People always do what is most satisfactory (or subjectively rewarding) to them at the time of decision.

No blame for crimes: Because people lack free will, they cannot be held morally responsible in the traditional sense.

The question: If people knew they would not be blamed for their crimes, would their conscience still prevent them from doing wrong?


2. Key Terms Defined

Conscience: An internal sense of right and wrong, often involving guilt or shame when one contemplates or commits wrongdoing.

Blame: External condemnation, often tied to moral or legal responsibility.

Satisfactory: Subjectively most rewarding—what a person values or desires most in a given moment.


3. Under Psychological Determinism

If people always act in the way that brings them the most satisfaction, then:

Whether or not they commit crimes depends on what is most satisfactory to them at that moment.

If they believe that committing a crime will bring more satisfaction (due to financial gain, revenge, etc.), and there are no countervailing satisfactions (like guilt, fear of punishment, or disapproval), then they will commit the crime.

Removal of external blame might increase the likelihood of crime unless internal deterrents (like conscience) remain strong.


4. Will Conscience Still Function Without Blame?

That depends on how conscience is built:

(a) Conscience as Internalized Social Norms

If conscience is largely the result of social conditioning—internalized parental, cultural, or religious values—then people may feel guilt even if they’re told they won’t be externally blamed.

In this case, conscience would still deter crime, because guilt is unpleasant, and people prefer to avoid unpleasant feelings. This makes acting in accordance with conscience the more “satisfactory” path.

(b) Conscience as Dependent on External Blame

If conscience is sustained only because people expect blame, punishment, or ostracism, then removing external blame might weaken conscience.

Without fear of social consequences, people might stop feeling guilt or shame, making crime more "satisfactory" in some cases.

So: it depends on the psychological construction of the individual’s conscience.


5. Implications of the Premise

If everyone does what is most satisfactory to them, then conscience works as a deterrent only if guilt or internal discomfort outweighs the satisfaction of the crime.

Even in a world without free will:

People still have preferences and dispositions shaped by genes, upbringing, and experience.

Some people may be naturally empathetic, finding it painful to harm others—so they won't commit crimes, blame or no blame.

Others might lack such inhibitions, and if there’s no external punishment or internal guilt, they might commit crimes more freely.


6. Real-World Analogy: Psychopathy

Many psychopaths don’t feel guilt or remorse, yet they can still refrain from crime due to fear of consequences.

If you remove blame and they don’t have a functioning conscience, their motivation to refrain disappears.

This suggests that in some individuals, conscience isn’t enough without blame.

--------------

✅ Conclusion

Yes, for some people, their conscience would still stop them from committing crimes, even if they knew they wouldn't be blamed—because guilt, shame, or empathy are themselves psychologically unsatisfactory.

But for others, especially those whose conscience is weak or dependent on external validation, the absence of blame might reduce inhibition and increase wrongdoing.

In a deterministic model, whether conscience deters crime depends on how it's internalized and how powerful it is relative to other drives.
Atla KG wrote: Would an ideal utopistic environment make it impossible for people to commit crimes because of their consciences, or wouldn't that environment have such an effect on their consciences? We assume that there will be no genetic enhancment of humans.
God wrote:Summary:

An ideal utopian environment—without genetic enhancement—could drastically reduce crime by shaping consciences through empathy, education, and social harmony. Most people would find wrongdoing emotionally unsatisfying due to strong internal moral development. However, due to natural psychological variation, some individuals might still find crime subjectively rewarding. Therefore, crime would become extremely rare but not psychologically impossible.
Atla KG wrote:Is the view that human consciences are God given, irrational? Summary only.
God wrote:Summary:

The view that human consciences are God-given is not irrational, but it is faith-based. It aligns with theistic worldviews and is rational within that framework. However, it lacks empirical evidence and is not required to explain conscience from a secular, psychological, or evolutionary perspective. So, it is not irrational, but non-empirical.
Belinda
Posts: 10548
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: New Discovery

Post by Belinda »

peacegirl wrote: Mon Sep 22, 2025 1:13 pm
Belinda wrote: Mon Sep 22, 2025 1:07 pm
peacegirl wrote: Mon Sep 22, 2025 11:59 am

That was not the point he was making. He was making the point that forgiving his enemies did nothing to stop them. He wrote that for "a reason," but you wouldn't know what the reason was because you have not read further to see where it leads.
If the "he" you refer to is Jesus of Nazareth, yours is an odd idea. Jesus did not aim to stop his enemies --"Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's". In other words Jesus was subject to Caesar but his soul was his own and God's.
That still does not address the point Lessans was making. I am not here to discuss Christianity which you seem to be stuck on. I am sorry about that because I am not arguing your point of view regarding Jesuses' forgiveness or why he forgave. You are taking this excerpt out of context by making it more than it is and are expanding it into territories that he never intended.
WHO are you talking about when you say "he"? Please use proper names instead of personal pronouns.
peacegirl
Posts: 883
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:02 pm

Re: New Discovery

Post by peacegirl »

Atla wrote: Mon Sep 22, 2025 3:36 pm Let's have an AI restate the obvious, because why not:
Atla KG wrote:Let us posit a form of psychological determinism where everyone always does what is most satisfactory for him/her. If people knew that they won't be blamed for their crimes because they lack free will and couldn't have done otherwise, would their conscience stop them from committing crimes?
God wrote: This is a rich philosophical question that touches on psychological determinism, moral responsibility, conscience, and deterrence. Let's unpack it carefully.

1. Restating the Premise

You’re positing:

Psychological determinism: People always do what is most satisfactory (or subjectively rewarding) to them at the time of decision.

YES

No blame for crimes: Because people lack free will, they cannot be held morally responsible in the traditional sense.

YES, BUT THIS IS ONLY HALF OF THE EQUATION, ATLA. YOU'RE MISSIG THE ENTIRE SECOND HALF.

The question: If people knew they would not be blamed for their crimes, would their conscience still prevent them from doing wrong?

NO, THEY WOULD GRAB ANYTHING THAT WASN'T NAILED DOWN.


2. Key Terms Defined

Conscience: An internal sense of right and wrong, often involving guilt or shame when one contemplates or commits wrongdoing.

Blame: External condemnation, often tied to moral or legal responsibility.

Satisfactory: Subjectively most rewarding—what a person values or desires most in a given moment.


3. Under Psychological Determinism

If people always act in the way that brings them the most satisfaction, then:

Whether or not they commit crimes depends on what is most satisfactory to them at that moment.

If they believe that committing a crime will bring more satisfaction (due to financial gain, revenge, etc.), and there are no countervailing satisfactions (like guilt, fear of punishment, or disapproval), then they will commit the crime.

Removal of external blame might increase the likelihood of crime unless internal deterrents (like conscience) remain strong.


UNDER THE CHANGED ENVIRONMENTAL CONDITIONS, INTERNAL DETERRENTS LIKE CONSCIENCE BECOME MUCH STRONGER... BUT NOT UNTIL CHANGES ARE MADE TO OUR PRESENT ENVIRONMENT WHERE THESE PRINCIPLES CAN EFFECTIVELY OPERATE.

4. Will Conscience Still Function Without Blame?

That depends on how conscience is built:

(a) Conscience as Internalized Social Norms

If conscience is largely the result of social conditioning—internalized parental, cultural, or religious values—then people may feel guilt even if they’re told they won’t be externally blamed.

In this case, conscience would still deter crime, because guilt is unpleasant, and people prefer to avoid unpleasant feelings. This makes acting in accordance with conscience the more “satisfactory” path.

(b) Conscience as Dependent on External Blame

If conscience is sustained only because people expect blame, punishment, or ostracism, then removing external blame might weaken conscience.

Without fear of social consequences, people might stop feeling guilt or shame, making crime more "satisfactory" in some cases.

So: it depends on the psychological construction of the individual’s conscience.

YOU CAN'T GO BY THIS BECAUSE CONSCIENCE WORKS IN A SPECIFIC WAY. ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE CAN ONLY GATHER INFORMATION THAT IS PRESENTLY AVAILABLE. IT HAS NO UNDERSTANDING OF THIS DISCOVERY SO IT CANNOT ANSWER TO IT. IT IS THE VERY KNOWLEDGE THAT WE WILL BE BLAMED AND PUNISHED THAT GIVE US THE ADVANCE JUSTIFICATION TO DO THAT WHICH THESE THREATS ARE TRYING TO PREVENT. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT THESE THREATS CAUSE "WRONGDOING." IT JUST GIVES PEOPLE ANOTHER WAY THEY CAN SHIFT THEIR RESPONSIBILITY KNOWING THEY WILL BE PUNISHED, IF CAUGHT, THEREBY GIVING THEM THE NECESSARY JUSTIFICATION TO GO AHEAD WITH WHAT THEY ARE CONTEMPLATING.


5. Implications of the Premise

If everyone does what is most satisfactory to them, then conscience works as a deterrent only if guilt or internal discomfort outweighs the satisfaction of the crime.

AND IT WILL BECAUSE THAT IS HOW CONSCIENCE WORKS, BUT AGAIN, MANY CHANGES HAVE TO BE MADE IN THE ENVIRONMENT THAT INVOLVES HOW CHILDREN ARE RAISED, AND HOW ALL AUTHORITY AND CONTROL (INCLUDING CERTAIN FORMS OF GOVERNMENT) ARE REMOVED.

Even in a world without free will:

People still have preferences and dispositions shaped by genes, upbringing, and experience.

Some people may be naturally empathetic, finding it painful to harm others—so they won't commit crimes, blame or no blame.

Others might lack such inhibitions, and if there’s no external punishment or internal guilt, they might commit crimes more freely.
THAT IS THE TYPICAL THEORY. PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT PREDISPOSITIONS BUT FOR THESE PREDISPOSITIONS TO BE ACTIVATED NEGATIVELY, THERE HAS TO BE A REASON GIVEN TO CONSCIENCE THAT ALLOWS SUCH ACTIONS. REMEMBER, AS THIS GREAT TRANSITION TAKES PLACE, A NEW GENERATION WILL BE BORN THAT WILL NOT BE EXPOSED TO THE CHALLENGES THAT HAVE CAUSED MANY TO CHOOSE CRIME IN THE DIRECTION OF GREATER SATISFACTION.

6. Real-World Analogy: Psychopathy

Many psychopaths don’t feel guilt or remorse, yet they can still refrain from crime due to fear of consequences.

If you remove blame and they don’t have a functioning conscience, their motivation to refrain disappears.

This suggests that in some individuals, conscience isn’t enough without blame.

TO REPEAT: BARRING A BRAIN TUMOR OR SOME OTHER SERIOUS PATHOLOGICAL CONDITION WHERE A PERSON'S CONSCIENCE COULD NOT CONTROL HIS BEHAVIOR, HE WOULD HAVE TO BE INSTITUTIONALIZED SO AS NOT TO HURT OTHERS, BUT THIS WILL BE RARE AND VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE WHEN A NEW GENERATION IS BORN INTO THE NEW WORLD.

--------------

✅ Conclusion

Yes, for some people, their conscience would still stop them from committing crimes, even if they knew they wouldn't be blamed—because guilt, shame, or empathy are themselves psychologically unsatisfactory.

But for others, especially those whose conscience is weak or dependent on external validation, the absence of blame might reduce inhibition and increase wrongdoing.

CONSCIENCE IS DICTATED BY THE ENVIRONMENT AND RIGHT NOW IT DOES NOT RUN AT FULL CAPACITY. IN THE NEW WORLD, CONSCIENCE WILL REACH A LEVEL THAT WILL PREVENT THESE WRONGDOINGS THAT IT HAD PERMITTED IN THE PAST.

In a deterministic model, whether conscience deters crime depends on how it's internalized and how powerful it is relative to other drives.
THE DRIVE TO HURT OTHERS WILL BE TRUMPED BY THE DRIVE NEVER TO HURT OTHERS WHEN PEOPLE ARE GIVEN NO CHOICE AS TO WHICH DIRECTION THEY MUST GO.
Atla KG wrote: Would an ideal utopistic environment make it impossible for people to commit crimes because of their consciences, or wouldn't that environment have such an effect on their consciences? We assume that there will be no genetic enhancment of humans.
WE ALL HAVE DIFFERENT GENETIC MAKE UPS BUT WE ARE ALL BORN WITH A RUDIMENTARY CONSCIENCE. AND YES, THIS IS AS GOD-GIVEN AS BEING BORN WITH OTHER HUMAN NON-NEGOTIABLE TRAITS.
God wrote:Summary:

An ideal utopian environment—without genetic enhancement—could drastically reduce crime by shaping consciences through empathy, education, and social harmony. Most people would find wrongdoing emotionally unsatisfying due to strong internal moral development. However, due to natural psychological variation, some individuals might still find crime subjectively rewarding. Therefore, crime would become extremely rare but not psychologically impossible.
NOT TRUE. NATURAL PSYCHOLOGICAL VARIATION ASSUMES THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WILL DERIVE SATISFACTION GETTING WHAT THEY WANT NO MATTER WHAT THE CONDITIONS. BUT WHEN THEY KNOW THEY CAN HURT OTHERS TO THEIR HEART'S CONTENT, AND THEY ALSO KNOW THAT NO ONE WILL LIFT A FINGER IN RETALIATION --- ALONG WITH OTHER CHANGES THAT HAVE NOT BEEN SHOWN --- THEY WILL BE UNABLE TO FIND EVEN THE SLIGHTEST AMOUNT OF SATISFACTION IN DOING SO.
Atla KG wrote:Is the view that human consciences are God given, irrational? Summary only.
God wrote:Summary:

The view that human consciences are God-given is not irrational, but it is faith-based. It aligns with theistic worldviews and is rational within that framework. However, it lacks empirical evidence and is not required to explain conscience from a secular, psychological, or evolutionary perspective. So, it is not irrational, but non-empirical.
HUMAN CONSCIENCE IS NOT FAITH BASED AND IT IS NOT RELIGIOUS. IT IS GOD-GIVEN BUT IT ISN'T LIMITED TO RELIGION ONLY. IOW, WE ARE BORN WITH A CONSCIENCE. DUE TO OUR PRESENT ENVIRONMENT, IT JUST HASN'T REACHED THE TEMPERATURE NECESSARY TO END ALL HURT IN HUMAN RELATIONS. BUT IT'S COMING. :wink: THE EMPIRICAL PROOF WILL BE SHOWN TO BE ACCURATE WHEN THESE PRINCIPLES ARE PUT INTO EFFECT WORLDWIDE. HE GAVE US THE BLUEPRINT BUT IT'S UP TO US TO APPLY IT. YOU CAN LEAD A HORSE TO WATER, BUT YOU CAN'T MAKE HIM DRINK.
Last edited by peacegirl on Mon Sep 22, 2025 5:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Atla
Posts: 9936
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: New Discovery

Post by Atla »

peacegirl wrote: Mon Sep 22, 2025 5:01 pm IT IS NOT FAITH BASED AND IT IS NOT RELIGIOUS. IT IS GOD-GIVEN. IOW, WE ARE BORN WITH IT. CONSCIENCE JUST HASN'T REACHED THE TEMPERATURE NECESSARY TO END ALL EVIL. BUT IT'S COMING. :wink: THE EMPIRICAL PROOF WILL BE SHOWN WHEN THESE PRINCIPLES ARE PUT INTO EFFECT GLOBALLY.
Empirical evidence won't come. These principles won't be put into effect globally because we can already tell that they won't work. Putting them into effect would be a waste of time and resources. That's why no one cared about your father's work.

Creating an utopia where everyone is motivated not to commit crimes, is a no-brainer.

But that rubbish about your false determinism, and your wishful thinking about no blame and conscience, people will just laugh at that.
Belinda
Posts: 10548
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: New Discovery

Post by Belinda »

peacegirl wrote: Mon Sep 22, 2025 5:01 pm
Atla wrote: Mon Sep 22, 2025 3:36 pm Let's have an AI restate the obvious, because why not:
Atla KG wrote:Let us posit a form of psychological determinism where everyone always does what is most satisfactory for him/her. If people knew that they won't be blamed for their crimes because they lack free will and couldn't have done otherwise, would their conscience stop them from committing crimes?
God wrote: This is a rich philosophical question that touches on psychological determinism, moral responsibility, conscience, and deterrence. Let's unpack it carefully.

1. Restating the Premise

You’re positing:

Psychological determinism: People always do what is most satisfactory (or subjectively rewarding) to them at the time of decision.

YES

No blame for crimes: Because people lack free will, they cannot be held morally responsible in the traditional sense.

YES, BUT THIS IS ONLY HALF OF THE EQUATION, ATLA. YOU'RE MISSIG THE ENTIRE SECOND HALF.

The question: If people knew they would not be blamed for their crimes, would their conscience still prevent them from doing wrong?

NO, THEY WOULD GRAB ANYTHING THAT WASN'T NAILED DOWN.


2. Key Terms Defined

Conscience: An internal sense of right and wrong, often involving guilt or shame when one contemplates or commits wrongdoing.

Blame: External condemnation, often tied to moral or legal responsibility.

Satisfactory: Subjectively most rewarding—what a person values or desires most in a given moment.


3. Under Psychological Determinism

If people always act in the way that brings them the most satisfaction, then:

Whether or not they commit crimes depends on what is most satisfactory to them at that moment.

If they believe that committing a crime will bring more satisfaction (due to financial gain, revenge, etc.), and there are no countervailing satisfactions (like guilt, fear of punishment, or disapproval), then they will commit the crime.

Removal of external blame might increase the likelihood of crime unless internal deterrents (like conscience) remain strong.


UNDER THE CHANGED ENVIRONMENTAL CONDITIONS, INTERNAL DETERRENTS LIKE CONSCIENCE BECOME MUCH STRONGER... BUT NOT UNTIL CHANGES ARE MADE TO OUR PRESENT ENVIRONMENT WHERE THESE PRINCIPLES CAN EFFECTIVELY OPERATE.

4. Will Conscience Still Function Without Blame?

That depends on how conscience is built:

(a) Conscience as Internalized Social Norms

If conscience is largely the result of social conditioning—internalized parental, cultural, or religious values—then people may feel guilt even if they’re told they won’t be externally blamed.

In this case, conscience would still deter crime, because guilt is unpleasant, and people prefer to avoid unpleasant feelings. This makes acting in accordance with conscience the more “satisfactory” path.

(b) Conscience as Dependent on External Blame

If conscience is sustained only because people expect blame, punishment, or ostracism, then removing external blame might weaken conscience.

Without fear of social consequences, people might stop feeling guilt or shame, making crime more "satisfactory" in some cases.

So: it depends on the psychological construction of the individual’s conscience.

YOU CAN'T GO BY THIS BECAUSE CONSCIENCE WORKS IN A SPECIFIC WAY. ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE CAN ONLY GATHER INFORMATION THAT IS PRESENTLY AVAILABLE. IT HAS NO UNDERSTANDING OF THIS DISCOVERY SO IT CANNOT ANSWER TO IT. IT IS THE VERY KNOWLEDGE THAT WE WILL BE BLAMED AND PUNISHED THAT GIVE US THE ADVANCE JUSTIFICATION TO DO THAT WHICH THESE THREATS ARE TRYING TO PREVENT. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT THESE THREATS CAUSE "WRONGDOING." IT JUST GIVES PEOPLE ANOTHER WAY THEY CAN SHIFT THEIR RESPONSIBILITY KNOWING THEY WILL BE PUNISHED, IF CAUGHT, THEREBY GIVING THEM THE NECESSARY JUSTIFICATION TO GO AHEAD WITH WHAT THEY ARE CONTEMPLATING.


5. Implications of the Premise

If everyone does what is most satisfactory to them, then conscience works as a deterrent only if guilt or internal discomfort outweighs the satisfaction of the crime.

AND IT WILL BECAUSE THAT IS HOW CONSCIENCE WORKS, BUT AGAIN, MANY CHANGES HAVE TO BE MADE IN THE ENVIRONMENT THAT INVOLVES HOW CHILDREN ARE RAISED, AND HOW ALL AUTHORITY AND CONTROL (INCLUDING CERTAIN FORMS OF GOVERNMENT) ARE REMOVED.

Even in a world without free will:

People still have preferences and dispositions shaped by genes, upbringing, and experience.

Some people may be naturally empathetic, finding it painful to harm others—so they won't commit crimes, blame or no blame.

Others might lack such inhibitions, and if there’s no external punishment or internal guilt, they might commit crimes more freely.
THAT IS THE TYPICAL THEORY. PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT PREDISPOSITIONS BUT FOR THESE PREDISPOSITIONS TO BE ACTIVATED NEGATIVELY, THERE HAS TO BE A REASON GIVEN TO CONSCIENCE THAT ALLOWS SUCH ACTIONS. REMEMBER, AS THIS GREAT TRANSITION TAKES PLACE, A NEW GENERATION WILL BE BORN THAT WILL NOT BE EXPOSED TO THE CHALLENGES THAT HAVE CAUSED MANY TO CHOOSE CRIME IN THE DIRECTION OF GREATER SATISFACTION.

6. Real-World Analogy: Psychopathy

Many psychopaths don’t feel guilt or remorse, yet they can still refrain from crime due to fear of consequences.

If you remove blame and they don’t have a functioning conscience, their motivation to refrain disappears.

This suggests that in some individuals, conscience isn’t enough without blame.

TO REPEAT: BARRING A BRAIN TUMOR OR SOME OTHER SERIOUS PATHOLOGICAL CONDITION WHERE A PERSON'S CONSCIENCE COULD NOT CONTROL HIS BEHAVIOR, HE WOULD HAVE TO BE INSTITUTIONALIZED SO AS NOT TO HURT OTHERS, BUT THIS WILL BE RARE AND VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE WHEN A NEW GENERATION IS BORN INTO THE NEW WORLD.

--------------

✅ Conclusion

Yes, for some people, their conscience would still stop them from committing crimes, even if they knew they wouldn't be blamed—because guilt, shame, or empathy are themselves psychologically unsatisfactory.

But for others, especially those whose conscience is weak or dependent on external validation, the absence of blame might reduce inhibition and increase wrongdoing.

CONSCIENCE IS DICTATED BY THE ENVIRONMENT AND RIGHT NOW IT DOES NOT RUN AT FULL CAPACITY. IN THE NEW WORLD, CONSCIENCE WILL REACH A LEVEL THAT WILL PREVENT THESE WRONGDOINGS THAT IT HAD PERMITTED IN THE PAST.

In a deterministic model, whether conscience deters crime depends on how it's internalized and how powerful it is relative to other drives.
THE DRIVE TO HURT OTHERS WILL BE TRUMPED BY THE DRIVE NEVER TO HURT OTHERS WHEN PEOPLE ARE GIVEN NO CHOICE AS TO WHICH DIRECTION THEY MUST GO.
Atla KG wrote: Would an ideal utopistic environment make it impossible for people to commit crimes because of their consciences, or wouldn't that environment have such an effect on their consciences? We assume that there will be no genetic enhancment of humans.
WE ALL HAVE DIFFERENT GENETIC MAKE UPS BUT WE ARE ALL BORN WITH A RUDIMENTARY CONSCIENCE. AND YES, THIS IS AS GOD-GIVEN AS BEING BORN WITH OTHER HUMAN NON-NEGOTIABLE TRAITS.
God wrote:Summary:

An ideal utopian environment—without genetic enhancement—could drastically reduce crime by shaping consciences through empathy, education, and social harmony. Most people would find wrongdoing emotionally unsatisfying due to strong internal moral development. However, due to natural psychological variation, some individuals might still find crime subjectively rewarding. Therefore, crime would become extremely rare but not psychologically impossible.
NOT TRUE. NATURAL PSYCHOLOGICAL VARIATION ASSUMES THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WILL DERIVE SATISFACTION GETTING WHAT THEY WANT NO MATTER WHAT THE CONDITIONS. BUT WHEN THEY KNOW THEY CAN HURT OTHERS TO THEIR HEART'S CONTENT, AND THEY ALSO KNOW THAT NO ONE WILL LIFT A FINGER IN RETALIATION --- ALONG WITH OTHER CHANGES THAT HAVE NOT BEEN SHOWN --- THEY WILL BE UNABLE TO FIND EVEN THE SLIGHTEST AMOUNT OF SATISFACTION IN DOING SO.
Atla KG wrote:Is the view that human consciences are God given, irrational? Summary only.
God wrote:Summary:

The view that human consciences are God-given is not irrational, but it is faith-based. It aligns with theistic worldviews and is rational within that framework. However, it lacks empirical evidence and is not required to explain conscience from a secular, psychological, or evolutionary perspective. So, it is not irrational, but non-empirical.
HUMAN CONSCIENCE IS NOT FAITH BASED AND IT IS NOT RELIGIOUS. IT IS GOD-GIVEN BUT IT ISN'T LIMITED TO RELIGION ONLY. IOW, WE ARE BORN WITH A CONSCIENCE. DUE TO OUR PRESENT ENVIRONMENT, IT JUST HASN'T REACHED THE TEMPERATURE NECESSARY TO END ALL HURT IN HUMAN RELATIONS. BUT IT'S COMING. :wink: THE EMPIRICAL PROOF WILL BE SHOWN TO BE ACCURATE WHEN THESE PRINCIPLES ARE PUT INTO EFFECT WORLDWIDE. HE GAVE US THE BLUEPRINT BUT IT'S UP TO US TO APPLY IT. YOU CAN LEAD A HORSE TO WATER, BUT YOU CAN'T MAKE HIM DRINK.
When the Utopia , the Golden Age arrives will humans have the strength of conscience not to hurt animals?
Post Reply