Philosophy Now Forum

Prehensility.

BigMike wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 8:28 pm

promethean75 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 3:18 pm Don't make me go get BigMike.

I'm not really qualified to review fiction.

But, apparently, you're qualified to write it...

promethean75 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 10:30 pm "I'm not really qualified to review fiction."

I been tryna work with Henry now fer... well fer a good six'r seven months at least, and I just can't seem to make a breakthrough. Reckon mebbe Henry don't like to think of emself as a toaster.

Cuz I'm not.

Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:51 pm If it's not the supernatural Free Will thing that makes humans more free than other animals, then what is it we have that allows us so many more choices than other animals?

Without the supernatural Free Will thing we're just meat machines goin' thru the motions.

Does it seem to you you're just goin' thru the motions?

you won't actually cite examples of this

From RL? Hell no I won't. Last thing I need is you, after figurin' out where exactly I am, showin' up on my stoop.

I don't like you much, but I don't wanna shoot your obese, agoraphobic self. I mean, jeez, I don't wanna have to haul your carcass offa my lawn (and I don't wanna pay anyone to do it either).

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Note to Flash Dangerpants:

I doubt he's readin' this thread: send him a private message.

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How do you calculate this?

What do I assert, biggy?

I say I'm a free will with natural rights. If I'm wrong, then I'm a determined meat machine with no right to anything. The calculation, then is pretty clear.

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what (you) believe about guns allows (you) to, among other things, voice disdain regarding fools who don't share (your) own arrogant and self-righteous convictions.

Oh, I don't need a gun for that. I'd voice my confident and righteous disdain for you and your schtick to your face, empty-handed (just not on my lawn).

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you completely avoid owning up to how this...is also applicable to you.

I don't comment cuz I don't know what you're sayin'.

Mebbe Dom can give you writin' lessons.

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the laws of nature compel your brain to delude you into thinking that your brain is not deluding you into thinking that you post what you do of your own volition.

Well, that seems an awfully convoluted, self-defeatin', anti-evolutionary thing for Nature to do. Of what possible benefit is what you believe is illusion, mind/free will, to a meat machine whose purposes are to move heat around and to reproduce?

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We're all stuck in the gap

Not me. If you are, you're there by choice.
see what I did there? high-larity at its finest

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presto!...clears it all up.

Well, it was clarifyin' wasn't it?

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What difference does any of this make if your brain, wholly in sync with the laws of matter, compels you to "anticipate" and "intend" in turn.

Of what benefit is imagination, intent, anticipation, etc. to a heat-shiftin' link in a blood line? Every other meat machine on Earth gets along dandy without what you believe is the illusion of mind/free will.

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From the day we are born until well into our teens we are indoctrinated by others to see our life as they do.

I'm sorry your ma & pa abused you (not really).

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rather than actually address the substance of the points I make

I address it all, over and over: you just don't like what I say.

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I once had to admit to myself that I was wrong about Christianity, then wrong about Unitarianism then wrong about Marxism then wrong about Leninism then wrong about Trotskyism then wrong about Democratic Socialism then wrong about the Social Democrats then wrong about objectivism altogether.

Well, aren't you the flailin' about lookin' for absolutely any port in a storm sob story!

A hint: you went in the wrong direction.

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How about you, henry?

You askin' what I've been wrong about (again)?

Go ask Flash.

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can a nihilist be moral?

Sure. It depends...

In other words: no.

All of you say...

(T)he outcome of this conversation, whatever points we may or may not agree upon, and the issues we may settle here, about this subject of free will versus determinism…they don’t matter at all, because, when you boil it down, the entire conversation was determined by our thoughts, which are nothing more than atomic and sub-atomic particles in motion—and that motion flows according to laws, none of which have anything to do with human choice.

Me, I say...

(I)f all the particles in the universe, including those that make up the brain, possess no consciousness, no understanding, no comprehension of meaning, no freedom, then how can they give birth to understanding and freedom. There must be another factor, and it would have to be non-material.

You...

The universe is nothing but particles. All those particles follow laws of motion. They aren’t free. The brain is made up entirely of those same particles. Therefore, there is nothing in the brain that would give us freedom. These particles also don’t understand anything, they don’t make sense of anything, they don’t grasp the meaning of anything. Since the brain, again, is made up of those particles, it has no power to allow us to grasp meaning or understand anything.

Me...

But we do understand. We do grasp meaning. Therefore, we are talking about qualities we possess which are not made out of energy. These qualities are entirely non-material.

You guys need a bigger boat (and not a one of you is a Brody).

Henry Quirk wrote:

(

I)f all the particles in the universe, including those that make up the brain, possess no consciousness, no understanding, no comprehension of meaning, no freedom, then how can they give birth to understanding and freedom. There must be another factor, and it would have to be non-material.

It does not have to be supernatural. Man are not simply aggregates of particles. Men are not even like other animals because men make conscious plans for their futures. Consciousness is not material but is what brings all the stuff around us, including our bodies, into existence.

Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:54 am Henry Quirk wrote:

(

I)f all the particles in the universe, including those that make up the brain, possess no consciousness, no understanding, no comprehension of meaning, no freedom, then how can they give birth to understanding and freedom. There must be another factor, and it would have to be non-material.

It does not have to be supernatural. Man are not simply aggregates of particles. Men are not even like other animals because men make conscious plans for their futures. Consciousness is not material but is what brings all the stuff around us, including our bodies, into existence.

"It does not have to be supernatural."
"Consciousness is not material ..."

What's left? Energy.
Agree?

It does not have to be supernatural.

I don't care what we call it: I just say man is more than meat.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 12:40 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:51 pm If it's not the supernatural Free Will thing that makes humans more free than other animals, then what is it we have that allows us so many more choices than other animals?

Without the supernatural Free Will thing we're just meat machines goin' thru the motions.

Does it seem to you you're just goin' thru the motions?

Excellent point!

People are not like dead meat or other non-living things. This is because people plan for their future which dead stuff cannot do. To plan for the future we remember what regularly happened before and assume it will happen again so we can make plans to deal with it some way that will make us happy.

Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:59 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 12:40 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:51 pm If it's not the supernatural Free Will thing that makes humans more free than other animals, then what is it we have that allows us so many more choices than other animals?

Without the supernatural Free Will thing we're just meat machines goin' thru the motions.

Does it seem to you you're just goin' thru the motions?

Excellent point!

People are not like dead meat or other non-living things. This is because people plan for their future which dead stuff cannot do. To plan for the future we remember what regularly happened before and assume it will happen again so we can make plans to deal with it some way that will make us happy.

Moreover, we can imagine circumstances we've not actually experienced and work to bring them about. We can anticipate dangers we've never actually experienced and lay in defenses or safeguards.

We aren't stuck in what was or what is. We can play with and attempt to make real (or, attempt to keep from becomin' real) what if and what could be.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:22 am I just say man is more than meat.

Obviously, man is more than just flesh. Humans have bones, are approximately 60 percent water, and so on. But are you trying to say that man is not wholly physical, that man has something more in addition to "meat"?

Would you mind explaining what that thing is? For example, what properties does it have? Does it, for instance, interact with matter? If so, how, and is that interaction one- or two-way? Is its existence independent of matter, does it go on "living" after the body is dead? Because I don't want to put words in your mouth, I was wondering if you could please elaborate on what you mean. Or do your thoughts just stop there, that man is more than meat?

Walker wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:58 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:54 am Henry Quirk wrote:

(

I)f all the particles in the universe, including those that make up the brain, possess no consciousness, no understanding, no comprehension of meaning, no freedom, then how can they give birth to understanding and freedom. There must be another factor, and it would have to be non-material.

It does not have to be supernatural. Man are not simply aggregates of particles. Men are not even like other animals because men make conscious plans for their futures. Consciousness is not material but is what brings all the stuff around us, including our bodies, into existence.

"It does not have to be supernatural."
"Consciousness is not material ..."

What's left? Energy.
Agree?

No , sorry Walker, good try but I don't agree about energy. I'm not a materialist I'm an idealist. It's another another beginning with E-------- Experience.

Energy = MC squared whereas Experience is not relative to anything but itself.

Belinda wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:55 am No , sorry Walker, good try but I don't agree about energy. I'm not a materialist I'm an idealist. It's another another beginning with E-------- Experience.

Energy = MC squared whereas Experience is not relative to anything but itself.

Experience is relative to motion. Mind moves as thought, the body walks and chews gum. No thought, no body movement, no experience ... no existence defined by consciousness of existence.

What causes motion? Energy, i.e., bingo.

henry quirk wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:44 am

Belinda wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:59 pm

henry quirk wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 12:40 am

Without the supernatural Free Will thing we're just meat machines goin' thru the motions.

Does it seem to you you're just goin' thru the motions?

Excellent point!

People are not like dead meat or other non-living things. This is because people plan for their future which dead stuff cannot do. To plan for the future we remember what regularly happened before and assume it will happen again so we can make plans to deal with it some way that will make us happy.

Moreover, we can imagine circumstances we've not actually experienced and work to bring them about. We can anticipate dangers we've never actually experienced and lay in defenses or safeguards.

We aren't stuck in what was or what is. We can play with and attempt to make real (or, attempt to keep from becomin' real) what if and what could be.

I couldn't agree more!