God and morality

[Gary Childress]

Or there is a third possibility, IC. The third possibility is that Romans 1 does not say what you think it says.

I invite you to read it for yourself. I think you'll find the language very, very plain. I don't think you'll have a hard time understanding what it says; however, depending on your reaction, you might have a hard time liking what it says. That's not my department.

OK. So you reject possiblity #3.

Which do you then affirm:

1. Everyone who is not a Christian in the world is insane or deranged.

Or

2. The Bible is not the word of God.

Is there a 4th possibility that I'm not seeing? If so, can you tell me what it is?

[Immanuel Can]

Or there is a third possibility, IC. The third possibility is that Romans 1 does not say what you think it says.

I invite you to read it for yourself. I think you'll find the language very, very plain. I don't think you'll have a hard time understanding what it says; however, depending on your reaction, you might have a hard time liking what it says. That's not my department.

OK. So you reject possiblity #3.

I think you will, too, if you read it.

But the rest was just a false dichotomy, so I've ignored it.

[Gary Childress]

I invite you to read it for yourself. I think you'll find the language very, very plain. I don't think you'll have a hard time understanding what it says; however, depending on your reaction, you might have a hard time liking what it says. That's not my department.

OK. So you reject possiblity #3.

I think you will, too, if you read it.

But the rest was just a false dichotomy, so I've ignored it.

So if I read the Bible, will I think that everyone in the world who is not Christian is mentally ill or deranged? Is that the case? If so, then do you think it's healthy for people to read the Bible if it's going to make them think that anyone who doesn't perfectly agree with them is mentally ill or deranged?

I mean, that doesn't sound like a healthy way to get along with others in the world. Does it to you?

[Immanuel Can]

OK. So you reject possiblity #3.

I think you will, too, if you read it.

But the rest was just a false dichotomy, so I've ignored it.

So if I read the Bible...

Don't worry...you evidently haven't read it.

You're safe...from the truth.

[Gary Childress]

I think you will, too, if you read it.

But the rest was just a false dichotomy, so I've ignored it.

So if I read the Bible...

Don't worry...you evidently haven't read it.

You're safe...from the truth.

OK. Well, maybe that's a good thing. Sounds like the truth would make me even more miserable. Can't say I want to be even more miserable.

[Immanuel Can]

So if I read the Bible...

Don't worry...you evidently haven't read it.

You're safe...from the truth.

OK. Well, maybe that's a good thing. Sounds like the truth would make me even more miserable. Can't say I want to be even more miserable.

Sometimes, as Thomas Hardy famously wrote, "If way to the better there be, it exacts a full look at the worst." In other words, sometimes you have to stare at unpleasant facts of reality before you're ready to opt for something better.

Or you can just pretend the truth doesn't exist. That works only temporarily. For now, it keeps you from feeling quite so sad.

But I have found that truth has a way of always winning in the end. It's better to get on the right side before truth wins.

[Gary Childress]

Don't worry...you evidently haven't read it.

You're safe...from the truth.

OK. Well, maybe that's a good thing. Sounds like the truth would make me even more miserable. Can't say I want to be even more miserable.

Sometimes, as Thomas Hardy famously wrote, "If way to the better there be, it exacts a full look at the worst." In other words, sometimes you have to stare at unpleasant facts of reality before you're ready to opt for something better.

Or you can just pretend the truth doesn't exist. That works only temporarily. For now, it keeps you from feeling quite so sad.

But I have found that truth has a way of always winning in the end. It's better to get on the right side before truth wins.

Do you have any false beliefs or beliefs that you suspect are possibly false? Or are all of the beliefs that you currently hold beliefs that are undoubtedly true to reality or correspond with facts of the world?

[Immanuel Can]

OK. Well, maybe that's a good thing. Sounds like the truth would make me even more miserable. Can't say I want to be even more miserable.

Sometimes, as Thomas Hardy famously wrote, "If way to the better there be, it exacts a full look at the worst." In other words, sometimes you have to stare at unpleasant facts of reality before you're ready to opt for something better.

Or you can just pretend the truth doesn't exist. That works only temporarily. For now, it keeps you from feeling quite so sad.

But I have found that truth has a way of always winning in the end. It's better to get on the right side before truth wins.

Do you have any false beliefs or beliefs that you suspect are possibly false?

Well, if I know for sure they're false, why would I hold them? That makes not a lick of sense. If I know they're false, I'm not really believing them at all, am I?

[Gary Childress]

Sometimes, as Thomas Hardy famously wrote, "If way to the better there be, it exacts a full look at the worst." In other words, sometimes you have to stare at unpleasant facts of reality before you're ready to opt for something better.

Or you can just pretend the truth doesn't exist. That works only temporarily. For now, it keeps you from feeling quite so sad.

But I have found that truth has a way of always winning in the end. It's better to get on the right side before truth wins.

Do you have any false beliefs or beliefs that you suspect are possibly false?

Well, if I know for sure they're false, why would I hold them? That makes not a lick of sense. If I know they're false, I'm not really believing them at all, am I?

Do you think any of your beliefs are possible to be false?

[Immanuel Can]

Do you have any false beliefs or beliefs that you suspect are possibly false?

Well, if I know for sure they're false, why would I hold them? That makes not a lick of sense. If I know they're false, I'm not really believing them at all, am I?

Do you think any of your beliefs are possible to be false?

Of course. We all have false beliefs sometimes.

But do I think it's possible Romans 1 is telling falsehoods about the human condition? No. I find it entirely convincing.

[Gary Childress]

Well, if I know for sure they're false, why would I hold them? That makes not a lick of sense. If I know they're false, I'm not really believing them at all, am I?

Do you think any of your beliefs are possible to be false?

Of course. We all have false beliefs sometimes.

But do I think it's possible Romans 1 is telling falsehoods about the human condition? No. I find it entirely convincing.

What do you find convincing about it? Are none of the mentally ill or deranged also Christians? Of the roughly 23% of mentally ill or deranged people in the US, not a single one is Christian. Is that correct? What about the 77% who aren't mentally ill or deranged? Is it the case that not one of them is someone who has rejected God?

[Immanuel Can]

Do you think any of your beliefs are possible to be false?

Of course. We all have false beliefs sometimes.

But do I think it's possible Romans 1 is telling falsehoods about the human condition? No. I find it entirely convincing.

What do you find convincing about it?

Already answered...and more than once.

Are none of the mentally ill or deranged also Christians?

I've met Christians who struggled with mental issues. I've already mentioned my friend's mother, who was bipolar. Her illness stemmed from abuse during childhood, apparently -- I only found that out recently (she has passed, since). It had nothing to do with her being Christian; in fact, being a Christian was the source of her greatest comfort and wellness, through all the dark nights she went through. As it says in the 23rd Psalm "...even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, You (God) are with me..."

So Christians can have physical illnesses, and mental illnesses, just like anybody else can. But in either, they have a source of strength and consolation that others can't dream of, as well.

[Gary Childress]

Of course. We all have false beliefs sometimes.

But do I think it's possible Romans 1 is telling falsehoods about the human condition? No. I find it entirely convincing.

What do you find convincing about it?

Already answered...and more than once.

Are none of the mentally ill or deranged also Christians?

I've met Christians who struggled with mental issues. I've already mentioned my friend's mother, who was bipolar. Her illness stemmed from abuse during childhood, apparently -- I only found that out recently (she has passed, since). It had nothing to do with her being Christian; in fact, being a Christian was the source of her greatest comfort and wellness, through all the dark nights she went through. As it says in the 23rd Psalm "...even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, You (God) are with me..."

So Christians can have physical illnesses, and mental illnesses, just like anybody else can. But in either, they have a source of strength and consolation that others can't dream of, as well.

So she was driven to mental illness by abuse but being a Christian didn't save her from remaining mentally ill, is that correct? She simply feels God's love or whatever that makes her feel better in spite of her illness, maybe?

[Immanuel Can]

What do you find convincing about it?

Already answered...and more than once.

Are none of the mentally ill or deranged also Christians?

I've met Christians who struggled with mental issues. I've already mentioned my friend's mother, who was bipolar. Her illness stemmed from abuse during childhood, apparently -- I only found that out recently (she has passed, since). It had nothing to do with her being Christian; in fact, being a Christian was the source of her greatest comfort and wellness, through all the dark nights she went through. As it says in the 23rd Psalm "...even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, You (God) are with me..."

So Christians can have physical illnesses, and mental illnesses, just like anybody else can. But in either, they have a source of strength and consolation that others can't dream of, as well.

So she was driven to mental illness by abuse but being a Christian didn't save her from remaining mentally ill, is that correct? She simply feels God's love or whatever that makes her feel better in spite of her illness, maybe?

It seems it was a dark valley she had to pass through. And very dark it was, too. I found her very courageous. But she would have told you that God was her only companion, her only consolation, in those dark moments.

Mercifully, in later life, she was unexpectedly freed from her bipolarity, by a combination of physical crisis that seemingly reset her body chemistry, freeing her mind. But it was not until later in life, and only for a few short years. She told me that the two major physical crises were the best things that ever happened to her, so great was her relief at escaping bipolarity.

She remained a Christian to the end. She's now gone to her reward. I suspect it will be greater than any I can anticipate. She bore so much more.

God knows what each of us must bear. And Christians are not immune from the vicissitudes of life. But we are not alone. And in the midst of trials, we are not unloved.

There's something very powerful about following a crucified Messiah. One never need doubt that God understands our suffering. And however great it may be, He has known more. We know He has sympathy for our weakness. That's a great encouragement.

Life's trials don't hit Christians any less; but they sure hit differently.

[Gary Childress]

I don't know, IC. I see no conclusive evidence to think that Christians won't also become mentally ill nor that all non-Christians are or will become mentally ill. Seems far fetched to me. If God wants me to believe, then his book is going to have to be more verifiably true. Frankly, I don't see how God could blame me for being skeptical. I mean, given all the contradictions, given all the alternative explanations, given all the inconsistencies, I don't think it would be fair of God to give me a difficult time for being skeptical of the Bible. If that's the sort of God that God is, then I can't think of that God as benevolent. I would think God would be insulted to think that s/he/it is portrayed the way he/she/it is in the Bible. Not a very nice depiction of divinity. Might as well worship Zeus. Just make Zeus eventually more concerned with morality, and you have the NT.