Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Wed May 03, 2023 12:04 pm
I'm honoured then to speak with someone so uniquely wise. Honoured and exhausted.
What do you believe Free-Will 'is'?
I like to take a step back from explicit definitions and ask, what do people mean when they say they feel like they have free will? What sorts of experiences are they referring to?
And before even bothering to define what it is, I think it's a lot easier of a task, for me personally, to say what it is not.
Last edited by Flannel Jesus on Wed May 03, 2023 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Wed May 03, 2023 12:45 pmI claim you don't understand one thing, and my response to some other thing entirely is a bad look?
How I choose to approach defining free will is completely independent of the question of whether you understand what determinists think.
Because I've defined both sides of my arguments while you have defined neither.
If you cannot show understanding of what your interlocutor believes, then again, this is a Monologue, not a Dialogue.
If you "define" what you think determinists think, you can still be wrong you know. The ability to construct a definition doesn't, in fact, make that definition an actual reflection of what determinists think.
And your second sentence is exactly correct, you've been monologuing a whole lot.
I'm ready to engage. Why are the Determinists so shy? Is it because it's as I've laid out already? And with a handful of Determinists active in this thread, against a minority position of Free-Will, that at least one Determinist should have exposed and exploited any weak point I've made by now?
Why would Determinists so adamantly oppose Freeing of the Will? I'm repeating myself now.
Could it be, that the constraints, limits and Order that Determinists hinge their belief system upon, presupposed a wide and large range of unquestioned beliefs? So less of a Philosophical position, more of a Religious one? So why call Determinism philosophical, rather than what it is, Religious? Determinists will respond with "muh Science!" but is Physics, Logic, Causality, any of it, really "on their side"? I don't think so. They haven't proved such, nor will they.
Determinism appeals to a need for Comfort, an Ignorance is Bliss mentality. Once you step into Free-Willist Territory, all bets are off. You need to be a Free-Thinker now.
You need to engage in Philosophy. Sorry Determinists, you're out!
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Wed May 03, 2023 11:03 amAs I stated earlier, the belief in free will is an egocentric delusion, one that is a source of great ignorance and chaos in the world.
I get the urge at this point in the thread, to go back, and list all the claims Determinists have made against Free-Will...
It would be interesting at least to quote the statements directly. It doesn't seem like any of the Determinists in this thread, want to "have a free-will". This is quite a different intention than expected. In other words, you'd expect that people would want to be free with their desires, at least in their own mind, their own imagination, and within their own privacy (if that were even possible). But alas, it is not.
Are people so severely demoralized that they have no inclination toward 'freedom' of any kind? Especially nothing related to their own, personal, motivated, Will?
I believe you are off on another topic entirely; you seem to be interested in individual psychology but the real theme is how does one function in the world as part of it. Is one independent of the world and one's history with it, as being an agent of cause. Is the individual cause and yet uninfluenced by its environment, or is the individual a reactive creature and only cause through its reaction to the greater environment?
popeye1945 wrote: ↑Wed May 03, 2023 11:03 amAs I stated earlier, the belief in free will is an egocentric delusion, one that is a source of great ignorance and chaos in the world.
I get the urge at this point in the thread, to go back, and list all the claims Determinists have made against Free-Will...
It would be interesting at least to quote the statements directly. It doesn't seem like any of the Determinists in this thread, want to "have a free-will". This is quite a different intention than expected. In other words, you'd expect that people would want to be free with their desires, at least in their own mind, their own imagination, and within their own privacy (if that were even possible). But alas, it is not.
Are people so severely demoralized that they have no inclination toward 'freedom' of any kind? Especially nothing related to their own, personal, motivated, Will?
I believe you are off on another topic entirely; you seem to be interested in individual psychology but the real theme is how does one function in the world as part of it. Is one independent of the world and one's history with it, as being an agent of cause. Is the individual cause and yet uninfluenced by its environment, or is the individual a reactive creature and only cause through its reaction to the greater environment?
Free Willies don't recognise the implications of men as originators of events. God or nature is the only originator of events.
Wizard22 wrote: ↑Wed May 03, 2023 11:52 am
I get the urge at this point in the thread, to go back, and list all the claims Determinists have made against Free-Will...
It would be interesting at least to quote the statements directly. It doesn't seem like any of the Determinists in this thread, want to "have a free-will". This is quite a different intention than expected. In other words, you'd expect that people would want to be free with their desires, at least in their own mind, their own imagination, and within their own privacy (if that were even possible). But alas, it is not.
Are people so severely demoralized that they have no inclination toward 'freedom' of any kind? Especially nothing related to their own, personal, motivated, Will?
I believe you are off on another topic entirely; you seem to be interested in individual psychology but the real theme is how does one function in the world as part of it. Is one independent of the world and one's history with it, as being an agent of cause. Is the individual cause and yet uninfluenced by its environment, or is the individual a reactive creature and only cause through its reaction to the greater environment?
Free Willies don't recognize the implications of men as originators of events. God or nature is the only originator of events.
Really, then free willers believe in themselves as reactionary creatures to god/ nature, but they don't really want to call it reaction? Sounds quite odd!
I believe you are off on another topic entirely; you seem to be interested in individual psychology but the real theme is how does one function in the world as part of it. Is one independent of the world and one's history with it, as being an agent of cause. Is the individual cause and yet uninfluenced by its environment, or is the individual a reactive creature and only cause through its reaction to the greater environment?
Free Willies don't recognize the implications of men as originators of events. God or nature is the only originator of events.
Really, then free willers believe in themselves as reactionary creatures to god/ nature, but they don't really want to call it reaction? Sounds quite odd!
That's not what I mean at all. Reaction to a cause or a set of circumstances is deterministic. Please let me have another go!
Free Willies believe that, besides God or nature, they themselves (FWs) can and do originate events. FWs believe only a tiny sliver of Free Will is sufficient to make them totally original creators of subsequent events, like what God is.
Belinda wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 5:25 pm
That's not what I mean at all. Reaction to a cause or a set of circumstances is deterministic. Please let me have another go!
Free Willies believe that, besides God or nature, they themselves (Fws) can and do originate events. FWs believe only a tiny sliver of Free Will is sufficient to make them totally original creators like what God is.
Do you think that this "we can originate events" idea is coherent?
Note that I'm not asking you if you think it's true. I'm more asking you, can you imagine the world being in a particular way where it could be true?
Or, alternatively, is it nonsense, logically impossible, there's no possible world where this is the case?
Belinda wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 5:25 pm
That's not what I mean at all. Reaction to a cause or a set of circumstances is deterministic. Please let me have another go!
Free Willies believe that, besides God or nature, they themselves (Fws) can and do originate events. FWs believe only a tiny sliver of Free Will is sufficient to make them totally original creators like what God is.
Do you think that this "we can originate events" idea is coherent?
Note that I'm not asking you if you think it's true. I'm more asking you, can you imagine the world being in a particular way where it could be true?
Or, alternatively, is it nonsense, logically impossible, there's no possible world where this is the case?
Yes, I can think of circumstances where "we can originate events" is true. The circumstances are that God intervened in nature to confer this special, origination,ability on men so men became that much different from beasts who merely react.
