Christianity

[Age]

Bottom line: If you're certain, if you don't mind staking your own future on that, then no harm done.

Do you think it's destructive to spread false information to others?

I'll let you know if I think I'm about to do that.

But it is BLINDINGLY OBVIOUS that you are providing and spreading False information here.

And, the Fact that 'you' are BLIND, and DEAF, to what 'you' are doing here "immanuel can" IS the ACTUAL ULTIMATE 'sin', referred to in the bible, and which, supposedly and laughably, it will be 'you' who will be condemned to a hell-like existence forever more.

As I have informed 'you' BEFORE "immanuel can", 'you' are being the BIGGEST SINNER here.

[Dubious]

Thank you for sharing that with me, Dubious! Wow. I had not read it before. It was like reading something that feels so familiar.

You're welcome!

There's a lot to think about in those few words which counters much of Western thought. "Learning how to love the world" was a major theme in Nietzsche's philosophy which Hesse was undoubtedly aware of.

[Harry Baird]

Dubious, seeking your thoughts on this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poFyjKEq1yM

[Age]

Thanks for the reply! As you expressed it, I can only agree. I don't know if you ever read Siddhartha by Hermann Hesse. It was, I admit, never one of my favorite stories - actually more like a novella in length - but there are parts in it which really makes one think and reflect which your post reminds me of.

I'm specifically referring to its final chapter called Govinda, a highly philosophic summary of insights which Siddharta was striving for all along and finally came to know fully as an old man. It's extremely well-written as always with Hesse, even in translation, with many fine poetic nuances. It conforms a lot with the sentiments expressed in your final paragraph.

If you're interested here is the link...

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/2500/25 ... htm#chap12

Thank you for sharing that with me, Dubious! Wow. I had not read it before. It was like reading something that feels so familiar. Here are some excerpts that really resonated with me.

“When someone is searching,” said Siddhartha, “then it might easily happen that the only thing his eyes still see is that what he searches for, that he is unable to find anything, to let anything enter his mind, because he always thinks of nothing but the object of his search, because he has a goal, because he is obsessed by the goal. Searching means: having a goal. But finding means: being free, being open, having no goal. You, oh venerable one, are perhaps indeed a searcher, because, striving for your goal, there are many things you don’t see, which are directly in front of your eyes.”

Or, more commonly known as, now, when this is being written, as just 'confirmation bias'.

So well said! The insistence on seeing nothing else but that which one seeks or believes... it's an intoxication.

Of which even "lacewing" is an EXPERT of, as can be CLEARLY SEEN throughout this forum. Although, "lacewing" BELIEVES the OPPOSITE is TRUE and that ONLY "others" do this.

"The opposite of every truth is just as true! That’s like this: any truth can only be expressed and put into words when it is one-sided."

Yes! An expressed 'truth' does not include that which is other than it. Therefore, it is not a complete view.

AND, CONTRARY to "lacewing" and MANY "other's" views, the COMPLETE VIEW IS ATTAINABLE. One just has to become FIRST True OPEN, to then just LEARN HOW to ACHIEVE THIS VIEW.

"...now see: these ‘times to come’ are a deception, are only a parable! The sinner is not on his way to become a Buddha, he is not in the process of developing, though our capacity for thinking does not know how else to picture these things. No, within the sinner is now and today already the future Buddha, his future is already all there, you have to worship in him, in you, in everyone the Buddha which is coming into being, the possible, the hidden Buddha."

That's beautiful. I think we're all of the same divine stuff...

What does 'divine stuff' even mean, or refer to, to you, EXACTLY?

And, the word 'Buddha' can be replaced with the word 'God' and the EXACT SAME 'thing' IS MEANT and being REFERRED TO, EXACTLY.

BUT, because 'you' BELIEVE that is NO God, 'you' are completely and utterly UNABLE YET to SEE this Fact.

and we're doing a dance here.

OF COURSE. AND, WHY do you KEEP wanting to refer back to the 'dance' word so often. Does doing so making 'you' feel MORE FREE and/or MORE ALIVE than those 'you' PLACE and/or BELIEVE are NOT 'dancing'?

Wrestling and poking... as well as embracing and loving... or feeling compelled... the best that we can, wherever we are.

'you', adult human beings, who keep USING and REFERRING TO the, "I am, or we are, doing the 'best' we can", claim will be SEEN for what 'you' REALLY ARE, and for what 'it' Truly IS, and that is; Just an EXCUSE for NOT doing BETTER.

While one is CLAIMING to be "doing their BEST", then they do NOT seek to CHANGE, for the BETTER, and thus 'things' REMAIN THE SAME.

"The world, my friend Govinda, is not imperfect, or on a slow path towards perfection: no, it is perfect in every moment."

"...learn how to love the world, in order to stop comparing it to some world I wished, I imagined, some kind of perfection I had made up, but to leave it as it is and to love it and to enjoy being a part of it."

This makes much sense to me...

OF COURSE it would. This is more or less what 'you' keep going on about "lacewing". BUT, as I keep INFORMING 'you', if 'you' want to LOOK AT and SEE 'things' this way, then this will PREVENT and/or STOP 'you' from WANTING TO CHANGE. And, it is the WANTING TO CHANGE, which will STOP 'you' from continually ABUSING CHILDREN, and the earth, the WAY that 'you' ARE 'now', when this is being written.

BUT, if 'you' or "other adults" want to just LOOK AT and SEE the ABUSE that 'you' are ALL doing as PERFECTION, and WANT to love 'it' and ENJOY 'it', then go right on ahead. BUT, do NOT complain about the CONSEQUENCES which come about because of YOUR 'misbehaving' here.

and feels more right to my sense of spirit... than any claims of judgements and damnations and separation, which actually seem like evil creations despite claims that they're the opposite.

Here we have ANOTHER PRIME EXAMPLE of CONFIRMATION BIAS AT WORK, and AT PLAY.

LEARN to LOOK AT 'things' properly AND correctly, and ONLY THEN 'you' WILL SEE what thee ACTUAL Truth of 'things' ARE.

And then the chapter ended like this...

"He no longer saw the face of his friend Siddhartha, instead he saw other faces, many, a long sequence, a flowing river of faces, of hundreds, of thousands, which all came and disappeared, and yet all seemed to be there simultaneously, which all constantly changed and renewed themselves, and which were still all Siddhartha. He saw the face of a fish, a carp, with an infinitely painfully opened mouth, the face of a dying fish, with fading eyes—he saw the face of a new-born child, red and full of wrinkles, distorted from crying—he saw the face of a murderer, he saw him plunging a knife into the body of another person—he saw, in the same second, this criminal in bondage, kneeling and his head being chopped off by the executioner with one blow of his sword—he saw the bodies of men and women, naked in positions and cramps of frenzied love—he saw corpses stretched out, motionless, cold, void—he saw the heads of animals, of boars, of crocodiles, of elephants, of bulls, of birds—he saw gods, saw Krishna, saw Agni—he saw all of these figures and faces in a thousand relationships with one another, each one helping the other, loving it, hating it, destroying it, giving re-birth to it, each one was a will to die, a passionately painful confession of transitoriness, and yet none of them died, each one only transformed, was always reborn, received evermore a new face, without any time having passed between the one and the other face—and all of these figures and faces rested, flowed, generated themselves, floated along and merged with each other, and they were all constantly covered by something thin, without individuality of its own, but yet existing, like a thin glass or ice, like a transparent skin, a shell or mold or mask of water, and this mask was smiling, and this mask was Siddhartha’s smiling face, which he, Govinda, in this very same moment touched with his lips. And, Govinda saw it like this, this smile of the mask, this smile of oneness above the flowing forms, this smile of simultaneousness above the thousand births and deaths, this smile of Siddhartha was precisely the same, was precisely of the same kind as the quiet, delicate, impenetrable, perhaps benevolent, perhaps mocking, wise, thousand-fold smile of Gotama, the Buddha, as he had seen it himself with great respect a hundred times. Like this, Govinda knew, the perfected ones are smiling."

Yes, wow! Wonderful. All is one... flowing... beautiful and perfect. And that smile! Glorious and divine. Our stories are such intoxicating charades on the stage. We're playing it all out. Feel love for the drunken dance! And know we are one with all.

The physical visible Universe is just One Thing. This Thing is infinite AND eternal. Thus, DIVINE. 'It' is absolutely PERFECT, EXACTLY as 'It' IS.

Now, this Thing is NOT separable, above, beyond, NOR a part from Nature, Itself. There is ONLY One Thing, and One Thing, ONLY.

And, whatever HAPPENS is PERFECTLY Natural or NORMAL. This is BECAUSE 'It' is Self-guiding and Self-governing System, which is ALWAYS looking out for and after Itself. Whatever is HAPPENING is ALWAYS in Its Self-interest and ALWAYS working out for the BEST.

So, the reason WHY 'you', human beings, had EVOLVED to "grow up" and ABUSE 'your' OWN children, and your ONLY home, earth, in the days when this was being written, is because of the WAY that 'you' BEST LEARN. That is; By your OWN MISTAKES. And, as soon as 'you', adult human beings, START ACCEPTING and TAKING FULLY RESPONSIBILITY for your OWN Wrong behaviors, in other words, JUST GROW UP, then, and ONLY THEN, will 'life' START moving in the Right, and ONLY DIRECTION, that was ALWAYS INTENDED to HAPPEN.

ALL are A PART of thee One... ALL are flowing, beautiful AND perfect, at EACH and EVERY moment. This is BECAUSE even though the Wrong that ALL of 'you', adult human beings, ARE DOING, and which 'you' STILL are NOT YET TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR, is PERFECTION, ITSELF, as this ALL leads to thee ACTUAL WAY of life and LIVING that 'you' ALL WANT, and SHARE.

It is the INNER 'Buddha' or INNER 'God', or INNER 'ANY other word' one wants to use, which is DIRECTING 'you' ALL, in the Right and Correct DIRECTION.

There is ONLY One Truth, One Path, and One Right Direction, because in Truth there is ONLY One.

And, WHEN the PARTS of thee One BEHAVE as A UNIFIED One, then the Truth of what IS ACTUALLY POSSIBLE WILL COME ABOUT, and HAPPEN.

[Age]

I simple refuse to accept any of the premises you've tried to compel upon me. And, of course, I explained why they were false.

No, you haven't provided any explanation, and everybody here can see that.
I asked you a direct question...

You asked a loaded question, filled with suppositions that weren't true. And I declined to read your script. That's all.

And I told you what was wrong with your script.

And, what 'you' CLAIMED was wrong with that script was just AS Wrong, AS WELL.

'your' Wrong ASSUMPTIONS here "immanuel can" are NOT some 'thing', which "others" can NOR will accept. Do 'you' UNDERSTAND this?

And you didn't like that. But as I say, it changes nothing that you didn't like it. It doesn't make me accept your wrong assumptions, and it doesn't alter reality in any way.

And 'you' NOT liking thee Truth being POINTED OUT to 'you' ALSO does NOT change ANY thing. 'you' NOT liking some 'thing' does NOT make 'us' accept 'your' Wrong ASSUMPTIONS, and it does NOT alter Reality NOR thee ACTUAL Truth of 'things' in ANY way, EITHER.

'you' REALLY do write as though 'you' KNOW Reality and/or thee ACTUAL Truth of 'things', BUT EVERY time 'you' are CHALLENGED and/or QUESTIONED 'you' FAULT and FAIL "immauel can".

So, EITHER, how about 'you' STOP with the CONDESCENDING behavior and way of speaking and writing, OR, 'you' just STAND UP and BEHIND YOUR CLAIMS and back them up and support them. The CHOICE is YOURS, ALONE.

I'm working on an answer. I'm accepting both your question and your answers.

That answer never came.

Right. I tried to give it, by laying the proper assumptive groundwork. You accused me of being too "Socratic" (pretty funny for a philosophy board, actually), and refused to engage. You called it "a game," and then tried to impose your own script.

It's not my fault if you never got your answer. After all, you were not interested in having a conversation.

LOL This appears VERY FUNNY coming from the VERY ONE who continually USES the EXCUSE, "can't be bothered".

[Age]

I told you what was wrong with your script.

It was a question, not a script. And I addressed your four weak protestations. You ignored me.

It's not my fault if you never got your answer.

It's not about me getting my answer. It's about you utterly failing to respond to an argument, that lays bare and devastates your entire belief system.

Hey, if you're prepared for your core beliefs to be publicly smashed wide open, and yet to pretend that nothing's happened, then that's on you, man.

Most of "immanuel can's" core BELIEFS are built upon ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, so they CRUMBLE and FALL TO PIECES EVERY time they are just questioned.
For example, one of "immanuel cans" core BELIEFS is; God is a "he", but when questioned over, HOW could God be a 'male gendered thing', that core BELIEF disassembles and is squashed to complete oblivion. However, 'you' will STICK with this core BELIEF, right "immanuel can"?

"immanuel can" just PROVES how FRAGILE those core BELIEFS EVERY time "immanuel can" does NOT accept, or does NOT respond, to the questions and/or challenges. And, just about EVERY time "immanuel can" does accept and/or respond to questions, and challenges, "immanuel can" just digs itself deeper and deeper into the HOLE of WHY it is ALWAYS BETTER to NEVER BELIEVE absolutely ANY thing AT ALL. (Except of course for the ONE thing).

If I were you, I would want to respond assertively and in no uncertain terms to such a potent challenge. But maybe you have no idea how to do that, in which case, the reaction of a genuine philosopher would be, "Huh, interesting. I hadn't considered that before. Maybe I'm wrong at the most fundamental level. Let me acknowledge that and try to work out how to adjust my belief system."

So much for Immanuel Can as a philosopher. It seems that, instead, he prefers to keep on trading whilst insolvent.

[Age]

AGE

But using deductive reason can you explain how our conscious ineffable source or the ONE, devolves by emanations from itself to produce every lawful manifestations of itself within itself?

NO one can explain 'that', which is 'ineffable'. This is because 'that', which is 'ineffable', by definition is NOT able to be explained, expressed, nor described with words. However, I can, very easily and very simply explain HOW there are, perceived, manifestations within thee One Source.

And, if, and when, your questions are far more specific, then I am able to answer them far more accurately and correctly, for you.

The 'PROCESS of creation' is just a 'reactive process' and this 'reaction' process results in 'evolution', which is 'what' causes 'creation', itself.

There is a lot to disagree with here. Of course we cannot define the ineffable. But we can contemplate how the ineffable devolves in itself to produce nous and devolves further to produce world soul and soul according to Plotinus. The process of creation is a conscious process sustained through laws.

But what 'you' call 'ineffable', some of 'us' ALREADY understand, and know.

This phenomena has been existing since human beings have been around. That is; 'that' what can NOT be explained NOR described by some, can BE explained AND described by "others".

The point I am making is that there are alternative lines of reason beginning with an ineffable source.

Talking about 'ineffable source' is just ABSURD and NONSENSICAL.

If you can NOT YET express nor describe 'it' with words, then PLEASE do NOT even mention 'it'.

For some reason you consider yourself more then human with all the answers.

This is ONLY because of what IS and WILL BE UNCOVERED.

Did human beings evolve FROM some OTHER thing? Can human beings evolve INTO some OTHER thing?

This is what I would like to discuss if you are up to it.

SURE, I WOULD LOVE IT.

What is it that enables you to know you have all the answers when others have the humility to realize they don't.

When one HAS the answers, and NOT necessarily ALL of the answers, which you are IMPLYING and/or INFERRING here, then just expressing that they have is NOT necessarily showing a lack of 'humility' at all, but rather they could just be expressing the actual Truth. Now, if absolutely ANY one does NOT want to AGREE with this, then that is PERFECTLY FINE. But, basing one's OWN views WITHOUT EVER challenging NOR questioning the CLAIM, then, REALLY, what one is basing their OWN view on is NOTHING more than just their OWN views, ASSUMPTIONS, or BELIEFS ALONE.

1. Is there not ONE answer in the WHOLE Universe that you know you have? Do you really REALIZE that there is NOT ONE thing, in the WHOLE Universe, that you CAN know?

2. What 'it' is, which enables me to KNOW that I have the IRREFUTABLE answer, is KNOWING that what 'it' can be AGREED WITH and ACCEPTED, by EVERY one.

A human being is a part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space.

When one wants to CLAIM absolutely ANY thing about, or in regards to, 'time' and/or 'space', then I suggest that they are able to back up and support THE DEFINITIONS that they have and use for these words, and that THOSE DEFINITIONS fit in PERFECTLY with THE DEFINITIONS they have and use for ALL their other words.

So, now, how do you DEFINE the words 'time' and 'space' here?

And, how are 'you' 'limited', EXACTLY, by THE DEFINITIONS of those words?

He experiences himself, his thoughts and feeling as something separated from the rest, a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

SOME people do this. The REST OF 'us', on the other hand, DO NOT.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us.

I explain this by INSTEAD of wanting to make 'a better life', for just SOME, usually only those select very few who are closest/nearest to us, how about wanting to make 'life, itself, better', for absolutely EVERY one?

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.
Albert Einstein

HOW this CAN BE and IS ACTUALLY DONE, is, AGAIN, VERY SIMPLE and VERY EASY, indeed. AGAIN, that is; ONLY for those who Truly Want to LEARN and who are Truly CURIOS and INQUISITIVE.

Do you have the humility to realize that you and I along with the great majority of humanity are in prison or does your ego provide the illusion of escape?

IF one HAS ALREADY 'escaped', then they HAVE ALREADY ESCAPED.

Do you have the humility to accept that it is POSSIBLE for "others" to gain knowledge BEFORE 'you' do, or did?

Also, when 'you' SAY, "the great MAJORITY of humanity", are 'you' SAYING and CLAIMING that SOME of 'us' have ALREADY done 'it'?

If yes, then WHY do you ASSUME or BELIEVE that I could NOT have?

But if no, then WHO, EXACTLY, are those who are NOT in 'the great majority' here?

[Age]

Thank you for sharing that with me, Dubious! Wow. I had not read it before. It was like reading something that feels so familiar.

You're welcome!

There's a lot to think about in those few words which counters much of Western thought. "Learning how to love the world" was a major theme in Nietzsche's philosophy which Hesse was undoubtedly aware of.

Once 'you' gain True and FULL understanding, then forgiveness for ALL and EVERY thing just 'falls into place' or 'just naturally arises', then 'love' for ALL 'just flows, naturally'.

Understanding just what the word 'love' means, or refers to, EXACTLY, is also just needed in order to be able to LEARN how to 'love the world'.

[Age]

Dubious, seeking your thoughts on this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poFyjKEq1yM

I know you were only asking for "dubious" thoughts here, but I would like to share mine as well.

1:23 " When the 'soul body' separates from the 'physical body' ".

The 'physical body' is VERY SIMPLE and VERY EASY to KNOW what is being meant, or referred to, but what is the 'soul body', EXACTLY?.

What this person is talking about is NOT ineffable AT ALL and can in fact be VERY EASILY explained and described in a way, and in detail, which would be and IS IRREFUTABLE.

[Lacewing]

Thank you for sharing that with me, Dubious! Wow. I had not read it before. It was like reading something that feels so familiar.

You're welcome!

There's a lot to think about in those few words which counters much of Western thought. "Learning how to love the world" was a major theme in Nietzsche's philosophy which Hesse was undoubtedly aware of.

Yes. It can change everything.

[Lacewing]

Albert Einstein: "A human being is a part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feeling as something separated from the rest, a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."

Do you have the humility to realize that you and I along with the great majority of humanity are in prison or does your ego provide the illusion of escape?

Nick, ego provides the illusion of separateness. Freedom from ego is freedom from that illusion. Ego does not provide an illusion of escape. Ego evaporates (or at least takes a back seat) when one embraces (and is embraced within) all.

Perhaps you do not believe that Age or others have experienced connection beyond separateness. It must surely be natural for all across the connected web of life, and many have realized it.

[Belinda]

If I were a judge in a court of law, how may an explanation such as Hesses's of the eternal perspective help me to make the best decision?

How may the vision of eternity help me in my less important decisions? True though it be, it's a consoling vision lacking moral guidance. When I rely on my own power of reason and my own sense of kindness and of duty that is the best I or anyone can do. This is the gap that Jesus or some other avatar is to fill. It matters a lot who is to be that avatar, as idolatry i.e. confirmation bias is always a danger.

[Lacewing]

If I were a judge in a court of law, how may an explanation such as Hesses's of the eternal perspective help me to make the best decision?

How may the vision of eternity help me in my less important decisions? True though it be, it's a consoling vision lacking moral guidance. When I rely on my own power of reason and my own sense of kindness and of duty that is the best I or anyone can do. This is the gap that Jesus or some other avatar is to fill. It matters a lot who is to be that avatar, as idolatry i.e. confirmation bias is always a danger.

Yes, I see what you're saying. I think we are spiritual beings having a physical experience (a well-known phrase) -- so, we go through a lot of motions for being here in these lives and these bodies, with all of the density that entails. I think a broader perspective, beyond ideas of separation, is useful for keeping us aware, always, of greater potential in and for any situation. Our moral ideas can actually be limited. We can operate from a different state that is receptive to possibilities that might be beyond our normal sight and thinking. We can be agents of that which is greater than ourselves, rather than serving ideas and beliefs.

Avatars can be helpful for reminding us of the possibilities beyond our normal sight and thinking. A problem (as you said) is if we turn them into idols. Then we might possibly cease to become/expand more by claiming that we are merely their servants/followers -- and their 'direction' (all based on certain ideas and stories) is the only truth we need to know. That is a controlled position and misses out on accessing so much more that is wonderfully and perfectly available to all.

[Age]

If I were a judge in a court of law, how may an explanation such as Hesses's of the eternal perspective help me to make the best decision?

What is this 'explanation', of which you speak of here, EXACTLY?

How may the vision of eternity help me in my less important decisions?

'Less important' in relation to 'what', EXACTLY?

True though it be, it's a consoling vision lacking moral guidance. When I rely on my own power of reason and my own sense of kindness and of duty that is the best I or anyone can do. This is the gap that Jesus or some other avatar is to fill. It matters a lot who is to be that avatar, as idolatry i.e. confirmation bias is always a danger.

I am NOT FULLY understanding what 'it' is that you are asking here.

But if 'you' were to 'judge' "another", then with the knowledge that there is eternity, existing HERE-NOW, combined with True and FULLY understanding, then this will ALWAYS help you in HOW to 'treat' ALL "others".

But this may NOT be what you are REALLY asking for, or seeking, here.

[Age]

If I were a judge in a court of law, how may an explanation such as Hesses's of the eternal perspective help me to make the best decision?

How may the vision of eternity help me in my less important decisions? True though it be, it's a consoling vision lacking moral guidance. When I rely on my own power of reason and my own sense of kindness and of duty that is the best I or anyone can do. This is the gap that Jesus or some other avatar is to fill. It matters a lot who is to be that avatar, as idolatry i.e. confirmation bias is always a danger.

Yes, I see what you're saying. I think we are spiritual beings having a physical experience (a well-known phrase) -- so, we go through a lot of motions for being here in these lives and these bodies, with all of the density that entails.

If 'we' means, or refers to, 'human beings', then 'spiritual being' is just the 'thoughts' and feelings', within the 'physical body'. The 'human' word just refers to the 'physical, visible, body', and, the 'being' word just refers to the 'invisible, being' part, of the 'human being'.

The reason WHY 'we' are, sometimes, referred to as 'spiritual beings' is because the 'thoughts' and the 'feelings' are, literally, invisible, just like the word 'spirit' or 'spiritual' means, or refers to, 'that', which is invisible.

It is what the 'physical body' experiences throughout 'its' life, which creates and causes the the 'thoughts' and 'emotions/feelings' within. And, because 'you', or 'we', are NOT less of, or more of, a 'person' because of the size, shape, NOR color of the 'physical body', then the word 'person', or 'you', and 'me' or even 'we' refers more so to the 'person' or 'invisible being' WITHIN, the body, and NOT in relation to the 'visible body', itself.

I think a broader perspective, beyond ideas of separation, is useful for keeping us aware, always, of greater potential in and for any situation.

Seeing 'things' in separated forms, or looking at 'things' as being separated was EXTREMELY USEFUL in LEARNING and UNDERSTANDING MORE about thee Universe in which 'we' have ALL found "ourselves" WITHIN. However, WHEN thee ACTUAL Truth is UNCOVERED and it is LEARNED and UNDERSTOOD that there REALLY IS just One Thing, ONLY, then the IDEA of 'separation' can be let go of and let dissolve completely. Just like the IDEA of a 'flat earth' and a 'geocentric universe' were FINALLY let go of and let dissolve away completely, that is; by most people, in the days when this is being written.

Our moral ideas can actually be limited.

'your', individual, moral IDEAS were EXTREMELY limited, in the days when this was being written.

But this was only because NONE of 'you' could EXPLAIN what IS morally Right and Wrong in Life. SO, NONE of 'you', back then, were EXPECTED to have been able to consciously TEACH, NOR LEARN, thus consciously KNOW what is morally Right and Wrong in Life. Just like NO one 'back in the days' what the ACTUAL Truth was in relation to the earth being flat or relatively round or whether the earth was at the center of the Universe or not.

If one has NOT YET been TAUGHT some thing, then there is NO WAY they are EXPECTED to have YET, consciously, KNOWN 'it'.

We can operate from a different state that is receptive to possibilities that might be beyond our normal sight and thinking. We can be agents of that which is greater than ourselves, rather than serving ideas and beliefs.

But it could be argued that 'being able to operate from a different state, which is receptive to possibilities, which might be beyond your normal sight and thinking, might just be ANOTHER IDEA or BELIEF, that one is just 'trying to' get "others" to SERVE TO.

How about, it is an ACTUAL and IRREFUTABLE Fact that since human beings were created/evolved into Existence, at EVERY particular stage or moment HITHERTO, there HAS BEEN MORE THAN, or MORE BEYOND 'that', which was just thought or BELIEVED to be true, right, AND correct. Does that sound like something, which is REALLY OBVIOUS and A Fact that could NOT be DISPUTED, let alone REFUTED, anyway?

Avatars can be helpful for reminding us of the possibilities beyond our normal sight and thinking. A problem (as you said) is if we turn them into idols. Then we might possibly cease to become/expand more by claiming that we are merely their servants/followers -- and their 'direction' (all based on certain ideas and stories) is the only truth we need to know.

ONLY WHEN an IDEA or STORY is IRREFUTABLE, forever more, then, and ONLY THEN we have arrived at thee ACTUAL Truth of 'that thing'.

I do NOT think there is absolutely ANY human being that ACTUALLY thinks or BELIEVES that there has been one story told, which is the ONLY truth that we need to know.

Just LOOK AT what you wrote above here about turning 'things' into IDOLS. There is ANOTHER 'religion' or 'story', beyond the "christian" one, which prohibits or forbids IDOLS, for the very reason of NOT following ALL of these VARYING and DIFFERENT so-called 'truths', and ONLY following the One Truth, which is the ONLY True One anyway, and which is, obviously, thee One, which is for the benefit of ALL, as One.

But, just like "christianity" has its 'truths' AND 'falsehoods', so to does "islam", and ALL of the OTHER ideas or stories. That WAS until thee 'truths' within ALL of them were combined together to form One UNIFIED Truth, which ALL could and would AGREE UPON, and ACCEPT, and Want to follow, VOLUNTARY.

That is a controlled position and misses out on accessing so much more that is wonderfully and perfectly available to all.

Okay. You have INFORMED us of this quite a few times ALREADY, but do you really think or BELIEVE that there is ANY one person who ACTUALLY REALLY BELIEVES that their OWN 'story' is thee IRREFUTABLE ONE, which EVERY one should REALLY FOLLOW?

Also, if there IS 'THIS', which is wonderfully and perfectly available to ALL, then 'IT' is OBTAINABLE. So, what this would mean IS, is that it is ACTUALLY POSSIBLE to OBTAIN thee One Truth, which ALREADY EXISTS.

And, just as long as one REMAINS Truly Honest, OPEN, and Wanting to CHANGE, for the BETTER, then what that One, wonderful and perfect, Truth IS EXACTLY, can be UNCOVERED, REALIZED, and KNOWN.

As it is said, thee Truth WILL BE REVEALED.