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No, you. Name one.
AJ's already offered a compelling response to this, but, even assuming that biological death is oblivion, this is inevitable after a few decades anyway, so the victim is still only being deprived of a finite period of existence. The murderer's crime remains finite, and in no way warrants infinite punishment - nor would retributive punishment even be the action of a truly loving God!henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:20 pm If you murder (unjustly kill) you irrevocably steal, end, a life. Might be finite to you, but for the one murdered it's literally the loss of everything, of himself.
No, dude. The omnipotent being who determined that to be the consequence chose it.
You'd literally burn somebody in hell for eternity for that?henry quirk wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:20 pm Seems like a pretty good deal to me (a damn sight better than you'd get from me if you murdered, raped, or slaved someone I love...I wouldn't forgive).
I'm not dodging.Harry Baird wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:49 pmThat's not an answer. Like henry, you dodge the question. Please answer directly.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 2:21 pmWell, would [...]Harry Baird wrote: ↑Sat Sep 17, 2022 6:40 pm Is it loving to condemn a person to an eternity of a hell which is, in your own words, "considerably worse than most people can even imagine"?
Yes/no answer preferred.
What? Your response is unintelligible.
Yeah, you are. I repeat:
Dude, there is a world of realistic possibility in between "let Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and Charles Manson walk free" and "burn those $!#@ers in unimaginable torment for ETERNITY!", and you know it.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:58 pm Problem 2: If God is righteous and a God of justice, how can he let Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and Charles Manson walk free?
Not in the slightest.
Well, let's drill down on that, and see what we get.Harry Baird wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 6:06 pm ...there is a world of realistic possibility in between "let Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and Charles Manson walk free" and "burn those $!#@ers in unimaginable torment for ETERNITY!", and you know it.
I already offered one in response to henry. It echoed one suggested earlier by AJ. It's simple, though not the most loving one: complete dissolution and annihilation of their beings at biological death. This deprives them of their otherwise eternal (after)life, so could be seen - according to this vengeful notion of God that Christians like you have - as doing justice via the sort of retributive punishment that you guys seem to think God considers justice to be.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 6:11 pmWell, let's drill down on that, and see what we get.Harry Baird wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 6:06 pm ...there is a world of realistic possibility in between "let Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and Charles Manson walk free" and "burn those $!#@ers in unimaginable torment for ETERNITY!", and you know it.
Supposing God is what He says -- truly a God of righteousness and justice, let us suppose, with "purer eyes than to look with favour on sin," as it says in the Bible -- what would be an appropriate response to the actions of the listed individuals?
To clarify: according to my own belief, setting aside the perverse view of God that Christians have, the actual God, being primarily loving, makes much kinder choices. God offers continual opportunities for learning and growth. God doesn't give up on people, no matter how bad their actions are.Harry Baird wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 6:19 pm It's simple, though not the most loving one: complete dissolution and annihilation of their beings at biological death. This deprives them of their otherwise eternal (after)life, so could be seen - according to this vengeful notion of God that Christians like you have - as doing justice via the sort of retributive punishment that you guys seem to think God considers justice to be.
For certain! The bible has caused an incredible amount of mental damage in your case. It goes to show how dangerous this book can be for the weak-minded. Jesus is like the moon, a weak reflection of the light which already shone magnificently, each in its own way among the main civilizations of those times. Jesus accomplished nothing on his own. To repeat, without Paul, Jesus would only be mentioned as an occasional footnote at best having accomplished nothing of his own.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:53 pmNo, you. Name one.
You cannot.
All your ancient "preachers" are gone and forgotten. None of them had any impact at all. You can't even remember one name.
But Jesus Christ...that's a name you won't forget. And after all this time, you should ask yourself why...
The issue under consideration is not of a divine Authority that may have established consequences for bad actors, but the issue of eternal, vengeful, irremediable punishment, the purpose of which, for such an exalted being, is unfathomable.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:58 pm Let's frame it in two problems.
Problem 1: If God is loving, how can He let people go to Hell?
Problem 2: If God is righteous and a God of justice, how can he let Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and Charles Manson walk free?
I amend that question slightly to address your complaints:Harry Baird wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 6:19 pm So, I repeat:
Is it loving to condemn a person to an eternity of a hell which is, in your own words, "considerably worse than most people can even imagine"?
Dodge it again and I'm done in this exchange. I've think I've made my point.
Well said.Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 6:33 pmThe issue under consideration is not of a divine Authority that may have established consequences for bad actors, but the issue of eternal, vengeful, irremediable punishment, the purpose of which, for such an exalted being, is unfathomable.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:58 pm Let's frame it in two problems.
Problem 1: If God is loving, how can He let people go to Hell?
Problem 2: If God is righteous and a God of justice, how can he let Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and Charles Manson walk free?
But a period of punishment, or some time lived in consequence, that could be understood.
Thus: eternal punishment is not, and cannot, be reconciled with the notion of a purely good God who has no malice.
The core idea here: vengeance and sadistic revenge. All too human . . .
A ‘really loving God’ would — must! — offer a path for that soul who did wrong and never atoned for it.
You rape, slave, murder my kid, and I get my hands on you: you'll suffer for as long as I can keep your heart tickin' and your brain clickin'. And when you die, if there's a Hell, I hope you burn in it. And, down the road, when I end up in Hell beside you (as I most sure will if Christianity is true), I'll make you suffer more, forever.You'd literally burn somebody in hell for eternity for that?
But you chose to rape, to murder, to slave. He set the consequence, yes, but you choose accept the consequence, knowin' the consequence in advance. He created Hell, but you choose to go there. And, as I say, even then, He'll wipe the slate clean if you choose to repent.The omnipotent being who determined that to be the consequence chose it.
Exactly. Even the murderer, the slaver, or the raper can be forgiven, if they sincerely ask for forgiveness.God doesn't give up on people, no matter how bad their actions are.
That'll do it for you? Okay.Harry Baird wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 6:19 pm...complete dissolution and annihilation of their beings at biological death...Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 6:11 pmSupposing God is what He says -- truly a God of righteousness and justice, let us suppose, with "purer eyes than to look with favour on sin," as it says in the Bible -- what would be an appropriate response to the actions of the listed individuals?
Another dodge. I'm done with you here.