The Philosophy Discussion Forum

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2026 6:48 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2026 6:23 pm

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2026 5:41 pmHere's one you should watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbQ-t8GXYTA

Fair enough. I'll get back to you on it.

Tue Sep 08, 2026 6:23 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2026 6:36 pm

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2026 5:41 pm Here's one you should watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbQ-t8GXYTA

Now done.

Tue Sep 08, 2026 6:36 pm

Mr Can, you did not watch a video of 44 minutes and 46 seconds in 13 minutes.

Do you know what a "thesis" is? Do you know that you can locate everybody's main points relatively quickly by organizing them by their relevance to the thesis? It's good procedure. You'll find it works.

I've read Bonhoeffer. I understand his view of "stupidity." What I couldn't find...what wasn't at all evident...what what application this video had to the present situation. So I've invited you to clarify.

And if I'd wished to be dishonest about that, I could simply have waited for another half hour or so, then sent the same message. I didn't. I'm not being dishonest, or trying to conceal my method. I actually can't find your intended application. So I decided to ask.

Seems reasonable.

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2026 6:53 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2026 6:23 pm...traidic symbiosis is a signal problem for Evolutionism.

Why?

You'll find out. It involves organisms that can't survive without the completed "evolved" version of each other, even for a single generation. But if Evolution were true, then how did any of the interdependent organisms manage to survive for generation after generation, when the means for their nourishment and reproduction were simply too "unevolved" for their uses?

And this is not just one problem in nature: symbiosis happens in millions of cases. Every one of them a demands an evolutionary solution, for which no rational explanation currently exists.

For example, if, as is the case, a snail parasite requires two other things -- a snail and the digestive system of a mammal -- in order to produce even one generation of offspring, how can it do that when there are no snails and no mammals, or their "evolution" has not kept pace with that of snail parasites and the third creature in the triad, and cannot make use of what it needs in some "transitional" form? And why isn't the snail parasite extinct, since its reproductive cycle requires a completed snail, a completed mammal and a complex cycle of interrelated behaviour to be fully developed before it can survive?

This is but one example of irreducible complexity. There are millions more.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2026 7:05 pm

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2026 6:53 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2026 6:23 pm...traidic symbiosis is a signal problem for Evolutionism.

Why?

You'll find out. It involves organisms that can't survive without the completed "evolved" version of each other, even for a single generation.

Well, the claim of evolutionary science is that at some point, three ancestral species entered a triadic symbiosis that didn't kill any of them and benefitted at least one. Since that time they have evolved together so that now perhaps, one or more of the triad could not exist independently.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2026 7:05 pm...a snail parasite requires two other things -- a snail and the digestive system of a mammal -- in order to produce even one generation of offspring, how can it do that when there are no snails and no mammals, or their "evolution" has not kept pace with that of snail parasites and the third creature in the triad, and cannot make use of what it needs in some "transitional" form? And why isn't the snail parasite extinct, since its reproductive cycle requires a completed snail, a completed mammal and a complex cycle of interrelated behaviour to be fully developed before it can survive?

Okay. So are snail parasites part of your God's design, or a product of the fall of man?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2026 6:57 pmDo you know what a "thesis" is? Do you know that you can locate everybody's main points relatively quickly by organizing them by their relevance to the thesis? It's good procedure. You'll find it works.

As any reasonably adept undergraduate discovers. If you ever do post-graduate work, you will need to up your game.

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2026 7:41 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2026 6:57 pmDo you know what a "thesis" is? Do you know that you can locate everybody's main points relatively quickly by organizing them by their relevance to the thesis? It's good procedure. You'll find it works.

As any reasonably adept undergraduate discovers. If you ever do post-graduate work, you will need to up your game.

Well, then, you know how it works.

So what was the connection between the video and the present matter of debate?

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2026 7:33 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2026 7:05 pm

Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2026 6:53 pm
Why?

You'll find out. It involves organisms that can't survive without the completed "evolved" version of each other, even for a single generation.

Well, the claim of evolutionary science is that at some point, three ancestral species entered a triadic symbiosis that didn't kill any of them and benefitted at least one.

All that's missing from that description is all the details. How does an undeveloped snail and an undeveloped bird get into a triadic relationship with an undeveloped snail parasite, so they can co-evolve, when the snail parasite needs a fully-functioning bird or cow with a complete digestive cycle, and a fully functioning snail with the habits and brain structures of a modern snail, or the process of snail parasite reproduction breaks down at multiple stages? And how does that relation -- assuming it could even be got -- manage to persist through all the subsequent stages of evolution, and never produce extinction in any of the participants?

There's a lot of 'splaining to do, Lucy. (as the old show used to say)

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2026 7:05 pm...a snail parasite requires two other things -- a snail and the digestive system of a mammal -- in order to produce even one generation of offspring, how can it do that when there are no snails and no mammals, or their "evolution" has not kept pace with that of snail parasites and the third creature in the triad, and cannot make use of what it needs in some "transitional" form? And why isn't the snail parasite extinct, since its reproductive cycle requires a completed snail, a completed mammal and a complex cycle of interrelated behaviour to be fully developed before it can survive?

Okay. So are snail parasites part of your God's design, or a product of the fall of man?

Good question...but not the present one. I have suppositions about that, but they won't salvage the question of how the snail parasite manages to achieve triadic symbiosis.

But if you want to see what we're referring to, here's National Geographic doing their little gloss on the life cycle of that parasite. See if you can figure out the evolutionary path that gets the parasite where it needs to end up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Go_LIz7kTok