Philosophy Now Forum

mickthinks wrote:

chaz wyman wrote:... the only logical inference to draw is that you are a racist.

Nonsense, chaz—the logical inference is that SecularCauses's argument is invalid—which makes you both as bad as each other.

He is defining me in terms of race. As the category is invalid per se, He is not only a racist but is also making an invalid argument

chaz wyman wrote:He is defining me in terms of race.

No, 'anti-Semite' isn't a definition in terms of race. It is a description of a kind of attitude of mind (that you deny having).

chaz wyman wrote:

SecularCauses wrote: I know he is specifically whining about me. So, here is my question: If chaz writes that the Jews control the US economy and all the banks, and the only evidence he offers is a list of three wealthy Jews, isn't it a logical inference that he is in fact anti-semitic, ?

As those 3 are actually the people IN FACT control the economy, and that I have praised several other jews including Woody Allen, Daniel Barenboim, Spinoza, Einstein and Jonathan Miller, the only logical inference to draw is that you are a racist.

So THREE people control the MASSIVE US economy yet you have the nerve to say those who believe in psychics are deluded? Oh my. I give up.

Veggie:

Even if ALL the banks in the world were controlled and owned entirely by Jewish people (and I'm not even going to get started on what a Jew is ), I would be perfectly happy with it. Better that than Christians or Muslims.

What would you call this statement? Or do we ignore it.

Neither Chaz nor myself are antisemitic and certainly have never professed anything as blatant as the above.

This is fact. "The extraordinarily high proportion of Jews in such fields as medicine, law, finance, literature, science, creative arts and the media is as obvious as it is astonishing". Intellectual prowess has been demonstrated from the very beginning by Jewish people. “Why should one particular tribe at the time of Moses, living in the same environment as other nomadic and agricultural peoples of the Middle East, have already evolved elevated intelligence when others did not?”

The answer could be found in the Jews’ earliest and most famous literary work: “The Jews are God’s chosen people.”

It is dictatorial to demand a person express themselves how you wish it.

I do not have to justify myself to you. It is obvious you come to your own conclusions, irrespective of whatever is presented to you.

reasonvemotion wrote:Veggie:

Even if ALL the banks in the world were controlled and owned entirely by Jewish people (and I'm not even going to get started on what a Jew is ), I would be perfectly happy with it. Better that than Christians or Muslims.

What would you call this statement? Or do we ignore it.

Neither Chaz nor myself are antisemitic and certainly have never professed anything as blatant as the above.

This is fact. "The extraordinarily high proportion of Jews in such fields as medicine, law, finance, literature, science, creative arts and the media is as obvious as it is astonishing". Intellectual prowess has been demonstrated from the very beginning by Jewish people. “Why should one particular tribe at the time of Moses, living in the same environment as other nomadic and agricultural peoples of the Middle East, have already evolved elevated intelligence when others did not?”

The answer could be found in the Jews’ earliest and most famous literary work: “The Jews are God’s chosen people.”

It is dictatorial to demand a person express themselves how you wish it.

I do not have to justify myself to you. It is obvious you come to your own conclusions, irrespective of whatever is presented to you.

I don't have to justify myself to you either. Think about countries where muslims have the power. Stonings, public hangings, women walking around in tents, amputations..... I would rather have the world controlled by secular people with an interest in science than religious nuts who think the Universe is 6000 years old.
The argument is about whether or not Jews control all the financial institutions and the US economy. The fact is they don't. No single group of people does. What about Muslim arab oil billionaires and their control of oil prices? No one mentions that.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: I don't have to justify myself to you either. The argument is about whether or not Jews control all the financial institutions and the US economy. The fact is they don't. No single group of people does. What about Muslim arab oil billionaires and their control of oil prices? No one mentions that.

I was amused to see that a list of "Jewish" American bankers in a post in the other thread on this topic included Morgan. Morgan is a Welsh surname rather than a Jewish one. Wikipedia says that J.P. Morgan was an Episcopalian by religion, and that his family came originally from Carmarthen. Possibly this is evidence that the American economy is really run by the Welsh? I was unaware of this, despite my name being Lewis, but I might have missed a newsletter or something.

Morgan is a Welsh name, but any name can be Jewish. There are hardly any exclusive Jewish names. A lot of names in the U.S. are identified as Jewish as a large portion of immigrants with certain names were Jewish while back in their country of origin the same name was used by Jews, Christians and non believers.

Names with "stein" "stine" "berg" "burg" "vitz" "witz" "vich" "wich" ski" "sky" are not necessarily Jewish. Jacobs is not necessarily Jewish. When names were assigned or taken in Europe during the last millennium one of the way was to indicate a man was the son of another.

Also the old rabbinical rule the mother defines a Jew not the father. Some Reform Jews will consider a child Jewish being brought up in their congregation with only a Jewish father. But if a person is Orthodox or Conservative if you don't have a Jewish mother the only way you can be considered a Jew is to convert. However if you have a Jewish mother, even though you are not of the Jewish faith, they will state you are a Jew.

Since traditionally in western countries the surname comes from the father, you could be born an O'Brien and still be born a Jew.

How amusing is that.

What say you CW? You would know better than I.

reasonvemotion:

I do not have to justify myself to you

This was not directed at you Veg, although I accept your reply was directed at me.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:

chaz wyman wrote:

SecularCauses wrote: I know he is specifically whining about me. So, here is my question: If chaz writes that the Jews control the US economy and all the banks, and the only evidence he offers is a list of three wealthy Jews, isn't it a logical inference that he is in fact anti-semitic, ?

As those 3 are actually the people IN FACT control the economy, and that I have praised several other jews including Woody Allen, Daniel Barenboim, Spinoza, Einstein and Jonathan Miller, the only logical inference to draw is that you are a racist.

So THREE people control the MASSIVE US economy yet you have the nerve to say those who believe in psychics are deluded? Oh my. I give up.

I wish you would give up - you don't seem to be very good at this argumentation thingy.
You only look like a fool if you re-write what I said. I know what I meant - if you respond with a ridiculous exaggeration then that is your problem.
A driver is not the whole car, yet he controls the vehicle. The economy is a far more complex thing, obviously, but there are leaders and there are followers. Most of the leaders of Jewish. That is not the same as saying that there is a Jewish conspiracy - and I was at pains to make that distinction, which you were either to ignorant and aggressive to notice - more fool you.

Jews hit above their weight in nearly all walks of life (especially finance) in most Western countries - Germany is a notable exception.
I can't think why you resist this fact, maybe you should go and live in Germany if you don't like it? Because underlying this all- your blindness of basic facts is, I think, your own racism.

I think a big part of you problem is that you are not reacting from knowledge but from ideology and ignorance.
The fact is that you had never heard of Bernanke or Wolfowitz until I listed them. Maybe you should look them up sometime?

RickLewis wrote:

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: I don't have to justify myself to you either. The argument is about whether or not Jews control all the financial institutions and the US economy. The fact is they don't. No single group of people does. What about Muslim arab oil billionaires and their control of oil prices? No one mentions that.

I was amused to see that a list of "Jewish" American bankers in a post in the other thread on this topic included Morgan. Morgan is a Welsh surname rather than a Jewish one. Wikipedia says that J.P. Morgan was an Episcopalian by religion, and that his family came originally from Carmarthen. Possibly this is evidence that the American economy is really run by the Welsh? I was unaware of this, despite my name being Lewis, but I might have missed a newsletter or something.

I lived in Carmarthenshire and known one or two Morgans, one of them was quite like a man by the name of Clarke whilst the other Morgan was completely unlike the other Morgan, was more like Smithy with whom he hung out. The fact that they had Welsh names did not have any special bearing on them except that they tended to cheer Wales in the Rugby rather than England (as did Clarke and Smithy).
The reason for my comments, is that being born Welsh, or Jewish does not confer a set of indelible traits. The fact that a Morgan started J P Morgan has no bearing on the argument. I don't think the average employee of JPM has any tendency to sing "A Welcome in the Hillside" every morning before work.

But despite there being little or no basis for any racist claim, those that cheer for a certain team because the self identify as Jew, or Welsh or whatever invokes some of the deepest and most primitive instincts for group-think, and tribalism. Such behaviour is evident enough on this Forum with the ridiculous arguments between US and Europe(whatever that is).

There is no doubt that the US and the UK are in an alliance with Israel, based a range of reasons holocaust-guilt, religious, political, and tribal. The support for Israel, and the associated negative propaganda directed at Palestine is completely out of proportion. You have to ask what is it about the Anglo-American wedge that panders to some of the worst human rights abuses in the West in turning a blind eye to Israel?

Part of the answer lies in the fact that international finance at the highest level is controlled by persons who cheer for a certain team.

JP Morgan is no exception.
J.P. Morgan's leadership in Israel extends across investment banking, asset management, private banking, and treasury and securities services. The firm has been committed to serving clients in Israel since the 1960s, when The Chase Manhattan Bank, a predecessor firm, did business with leading Israeli banks and The State of Israel. The firm opened its first Israeli office in 2000.

When it comes to foreign countries cheering the Israel time does not have to involve being from a jewish founded firm, or even being jewish. You've only to listen to the 'my country right or wrong' idiots on this forum to know that. Irrational support for a country that has routinely abused the human rights of its conquered subalterns is about influence and propaganda, jingoism and flag waving.

Turning a blind eye is about turning a profit.

reasonvemotion wrote:Morgan is a Welsh name, but any name can be Jewish. There are hardly any exclusive Jewish names. A lot of names in the U.S. are identified as Jewish as a large portion of immigrants with certain names were Jewish while back in their country of origin the same name was used by Jews, Christians and non believers.

Names with "stein" "stine" "berg" "burg" "vitz" "witz" "vich" "wich" ski" "sky" are not necessarily Jewish. Jacobs is not necessarily Jewish. When names were assigned or taken in Europe during the last millennium one of the way was to indicate a man was the son of another.

Also the old rabbinical rule the mother defines a Jew not the father. Some Reform Jews will consider a child Jewish being brought up in their congregation with only a Jewish father. But if a person is Orthodox or Conservative if you don't have a Jewish mother the only way you can be considered a Jew is to convert. However if you have a Jewish mother, even though you are not of the Jewish faith, they will state you are a Jew.

Since traditionally in western countries the surname comes from the father, you could be born an O'Brien and still be born a Jew.

How amusing is that.

What say you CW? You would know better than I.

All true - The other thing that is worthy of note is that Jews have been adopting Gentile names for 2000 years to avoid persecution. There is a good chance that we are all a little bit jewish in ancestry, and we would never know to what extent.
I would be willing to guess that many of the guards in Auschwitz that pulling the plugs on the Kyklon B were of Jewish descent.

It's further complicated by the fact Traditionally jewish families were based on the female line, but to avoid conspicuosity adopted male primogeniture.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:I don't have to justify myself to you either. Think about countries where muslims have the power. Stonings, public hangings, women walking around in tents, amputations.....

this is not actually true for most muslim countries and not the most populous one - indonesia

it is true for muslim countries that get a lot of press e g saudi arabia afghanistan and iran and pakistan


also i live in a country controlled by christians and they have been somewhat successful in denying girls and women access to information and reproductive health and actual access to reproductive health care

christian fundies are at least as bad as muslim fundies

I would rather have the world controlled by secular people with an interest in science than religious nuts who think the Universe is 6000 years old.

the secular people would be just as loony if they got a measure of power