The Philosophy Discussion Forum

Radagast wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2026 8:49 pm Piece of Canada-UK-related news I stumbled across on Wikipedia. For some reason it appears to have had zero press coverage here in the UK, and Google isn't giving me any results for coverage in Canada either. I suppose trade agreements aren't sexy, but...

Uhm.... If I look at this link you provided....

Radagast wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2026 8:49 pm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession ... m_to_CPTPP

I can't help but notice that the bottom of the page contains a reference section with a links to sites including the BBC, Grauniad, Torygraph and even the Daily Express covering this whole thing. And there's also coverage listed there from Canada, Peru, Argentina...



To help with your google fu, if you put this into the search bar, it will search the BBC site for all news on this story from that site.

site:bbc.co.uk uk to join CPTPP

For a Canadian focussed alternative:

site:cbc.ca uk to join CPTPP

I was insufficiently clear in expressing myself.

I didn't mean that there had been no coverage of CPTPP. Clearly, there has been lots. And before there was CPTPP, there was its predecessor, TPP, which would have included the USA except that Trump pulled the US out of the plan during his first term of office, causing TPP to be rewritten as CPTPP. That's all old news, widely covered in the media worldwide. So is the UK joining CPTPP, a process that was completed in 2024, which again was widely reported round the globe.

Even Canada finally ratifying the UK's accession to CPTPP did receive some extremely limited coverage. But once ratification had been voted through the Canadian House of Commons and Canada's Senate, and received Royal Assent on May 6th this year, still nothing happened for two months more. Canada's ratification still needed to be deposited with the New Zealand Government, who are the record keepers for the CPTPP treaty, and then 60 days later the treaty would finally take effect for Canada-UK trade. But that didn't happen. The world held its breath, but still nothing.

And then after two months, at the beginning of July, without any fanfare at all, so far as I can tell, somebody in the Canadian govt finally remembered to put the ratification in the mail to NZ. This (and only this) is the bit that I said received no press coverage. But I'm happy to be proven wrong if you are bored enough to find me a link using the excellent resources you mentioned.

Radagast wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2026 7:04 pm once ratification had been voted through the Canadian House of Commons and Canada's Senate, and received Royal Assent on May 6th this year, still nothing happened for two months more. Canada's ratification still needed to be deposited with the New Zealand Government, who are the record keepers for the CPTPP treaty, and then 60 days later the treaty would finally take effect for Canada-UK trade. But that didn't happen. The world held its breath, but still nothing.

What a riveting tale of untimely bureaucratic paperwork subjected to quite short delays. I too am shocked that it wasn't front page news. But I am relieved that the world found itself able to breathe again in the end.

FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2026 11:21 pm What a riveting tale of untimely bureaucratic paperwork subjected to quite short delays. I too am shocked that it wasn't front page news. But I am relieved that the world found itself able to breathe again in the end.

Yeah, I'm thinking of writing it up as a children's bedtime book, to sell to parents of hyperactive toddlers who won't sleep. Haven't decided yet who to ask to do the illustrations.

After three administrations by Leftist-leaning Canadian governments, the richest province in Canada (Ontario) is now poorer per capita than the poorest American state (Mississippi).

Historically, Canada has been at around parity with the US for prosperity.

Just something to know.

O Canada...we hardly knew ye.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2026 9:58 pm After three administrations by Leftist-leaning Canadian governments, the richest province in Canada (Ontario) is now poorer per capita than the poorest American state (Mississippi).
Historically, Canada has been at around parity with the US for prosperity.
Just something to know.
O Canada...we hardly knew ye.

Now IC, did you actually bother looking up average individual income, median individual income, average family income, median family income for both Ontario and Mississippi? Or are you just parroting somebody's hog wash?

I suggest that you obtain those figures for Ontario and Mississippi and post them here so we can all see which are higher (even allowing for the difference between $1US and $1CAN). Do you need recipes for C. brachyrhynchos? (the common crow in North America)

HOWEVER -- real/correct measures of prosperity are looking for medians in terms of THINGS (not money). What percentage lacks indoor plumbing, lacks even one car/truck, etc. Need to be careful with that too as "lacks air conditioning" and "lacks central heating" mean different things in Ontario and Mississippi. Going by THINGS real important as in some "poor" places the folks are rather good at keeping things "off the books".

MikeNovack wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2026 11:32 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2026 9:58 pm After three administrations by Leftist-leaning Canadian governments, the richest province in Canada (Ontario) is now poorer per capita than the poorest American state (Mississippi).
Historically, Canada has been at around parity with the US for prosperity.
Just something to know.
O Canada...we hardly knew ye.

Now IC, did you actually bother looking up average individual income, median individual income, average family income, median family income for both Ontario and Mississippi? Or are you just parroting somebody's hog wash?

You are both wrong. Mississippi is a massive recipient of welfare taken from the taxes of rich states like New York, without this socialist income it would not be rich, it would be more or less empty.

MikeNovack wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2026 11:32 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2026 9:58 pm After three administrations by Leftist-leaning Canadian governments, the richest province in Canada (Ontario) is now poorer per capita than the poorest American state (Mississippi).
Historically, Canada has been at around parity with the US for prosperity.
Just something to know.
O Canada...we hardly knew ye.

Now IC, did you actually bother looking up average individual income, median individual income, average family income, median family income for both Ontario and Mississippi? Or are you just parroting somebody's hog wash?

It has been publicly cited by various critics of the present admin, including Canada's premier public philosopher and the leader of the official opposition, and by the Frazer Institute, which is Canada's most famous research organization. https://www.fraserinstitute.org/comment ... y-us-state

There ya go.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2026 2:03 am

MikeNovack wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2026 11:32 pm
Now IC, did you actually bother looking up average individual income, median individual income, average family income, median family income for both Ontario and Mississippi? Or are you just parroting somebody's hog wash?

It has been publicly cited by various critics of the present admin, including Canada's premier public philosopher and the leader of the official opposition, and by the Frazer Institute, which is Canada's most famous research organization. https://www.fraserinstitute.org/comment ... y-us-state

There ya go.

As I suspected, you did NOT bother checking the numbers for yourself. Even though easy to look up on the internet.

I'll just put up a representative sample based on "family" (the "individual" data is similar). Not sure looking at the same year, but the diffrencs large enough we can ignore that as well as differences in the dollars.

Ont: family average 106,300 family median 74,600
MS: family average 78,922 family median 56,947

You are too damn trusting.

MikeNovack wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2026 3:18 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2026 2:03 am

MikeNovack wrote: ↑Tue Aug 04, 2026 11:32 pm
Now IC, did you actually bother looking up average individual income, median individual income, average family income, median family income for both Ontario and Mississippi? Or are you just parroting somebody's hog wash?

It has been publicly cited by various critics of the present admin, including Canada's premier public philosopher and the leader of the official opposition, and by the Frazer Institute, which is Canada's most famous research organization. https://www.fraserinstitute.org/comment ... y-us-state

There ya go.

As I suspected, you did NOT bother checking the numbers for yourself. Even though easy to look up on the internet.

Well, numbers get massaged, as you know. For example, does one include taxation and clawbacks, or does one just refer to gross income? Does one add in real estate prices, or just pretend they don't impact income?

But the explanation of the basis for the calculation, in this case, is given in this discussion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ojtzLsa9tU.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2026 3:50 pm
Well, numbers get massaged, as you know. For example, does one include taxation and clawbacks, or does one just refer to gross income? Does one add in real estate prices, or just pretend they don't impact income?

But the explanation of the basis for the calculation, in this case, is given in this discussion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ojtzLsa9tU.

Quite so. Most common in Canada to report these figures AFTER taxes and in the US it is always before taxes. But I did manage to find figures for Canada that were before taxes so a proper comparison.

Real estate prices and prices of various goods an services play a role in determining WHAT income figures mean. Thus I received much lower pay for being a senior systems analyst/senior business analyst out here in the boonies of MA than I would have had I been working/living close to Boston. So lower income. But I was able to buy a house, barn, and 87 acres of land and that would have cost millions inside of Rt 495.

BUT -- you were making a claim about income. That is what I responded to.

LOL, we were once visiting folks living out at the end of roads in Maine, an area extremely poor the way government figures work. They assured me (and I could see by observation) they were much better off than that. Just good at barter and other ways of keeping things "off the books". Peasants know how to hide the pigs.

You still don't get it -- were you never taught to go to PRIMARY SOURCES whenever possible. WHERE in that link you sent me did the talking head present any DATA? You are too credulous.

MikeNovack wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2026 5:32 pm You still don't get it -- were you never taught to go to PRIMARY SOURCES whenever possible.

Merely going to "primary sources" isn't enough. That's the point I was making. It's a matter of which "primary sources" one goes to, and which "primary sources" one doesn't include in one's calculation. Raw income is one "primary source." But so is "real estate values." "Tax rate" is another -- though difficult to assemble, in Canada, since they have not only income taxes, but gas taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, carbon taxes, civic taxes, provincial taxes...and compounded taxes upon the money they've already taxed. And then there's the fact that Canadian dollars are worth only a fraction of the American dollars, and aren't even the same currency. There's a lot to assemble in any such calculation: more than you can do, I'm quite certain.

All those are "primary data." All of them are obtained from "primary sources." But you can see very easily that numbers will swing radically, depending on which of the above "primary sources" you decide not to count. Meanwhile, I'm quite certain you didn't use primary sources yourself; your calculation appeared all to quickly and unproblematically, and without any of the above nuance.

However, on my side I have Jordan Peterson, Pierre Poilievre, and the Fraser Institute, among others. And you have...what you Googled or copied from what AI gave you, without even addressing the nuance, as above.

So you'll have to forgive me if I don't worry myself much about your exception-taking.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2026 5:57 pm . Meanwhile, I'm quite certain you didn't use primary sources yourself; your calculation appeared all to quickly and unproblematically, and without any of the above nuance.

However, on my side I have Jordan Peterson, Pierre Poilievre, and the Fraser Institute, among others. And you have...what you Googled or copied from what AI gave you, without even addressing the nuance, as above.

So you'll have to forgive me if I don't worry myself much about your exception-taking.

You mean you think I did not go to where Ontario and Mississippi post this data (public record). What search engines I used to find where on the internet posted is beside the point.

Did you not even notice that the link you sent was people talking, not presenting actual data? Not backing up what they were saying (higher/lower) with numbers? You are too gullible.

MikeNovack wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2026 7:53 pm You are too gullible.

Ad hominem. Subjective and argumentative.

But, I note, not a refutation of anything, either. Whether or not you want to cavil over Mississippi, It's still the case that Canada's in a wretched economic mess, primarily because of the last three Leftist governments. And that's the main point. But it's nothing new, because Leftists always destroy economies.

IC, the point is you were not curious. Somebody said something you wanted to believe was true, and that was enough for you to not take a look for yourself. You didn't respond, "interesting, but by how much?" << and so look the numbers up >>

Especially note attribution of cause. Look at average and median income for all the provinces. Not the same, right? Can you correlate those difference with the position of the provincial governments on the left-right spectrum? << is that a satisfactory explanation? >>

And BTW, I assure you, we here in the states pay taxes too. Including things like taxes on taxes << if you buy tires, federal excise tax on the tires and when state sales tax is figured, amount based on the tires + excise tax >>

Average and median income in Cuba far less than in the US. Is that because of Communism or was this always the case, even back in the days of the right wing Batista government?

USE YOUR HEAD, MAN.