The Culture Wars

How should society be organised, if at all?

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phyllo
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Re: The Culture Wars

Post by phyllo »

MikeNovack wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2026 1:01 am
accelafine wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2026 12:28 am Then there are all the paintings depicting 'white people'. The Mona Lisa needs to be immediately restored to her orignal blackness.........
Your ridiculous hyperbole is disgusting. The non-depiction of people of color where people of color present is their objection, not a demand that they be depicted where absent.

AND YOU KNOW THIS
You are mistaken.

Black actors ( and other races) now play white people.
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accelafine
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Re: The Culture Wars

Post by accelafine »

MikeNovack wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2026 1:01 am
accelafine wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2026 12:28 am Then there are all the paintings depicting 'white people'. The Mona Lisa needs to be immediately restored to her orignal blackness.........
Your ridiculous hyperbole is disgusting. The non-depiction of people of color where people of color present is their objection, not a demand that they be depicted where absent.

AND YOU KNOW THIS
Are you really as thick and illiterate as you present yourself as?
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phyllo
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Re: The Culture Wars

Post by phyllo »

I still don't care about Luke Skywalker. He's a shit character. The movies were fun because of Han Solo, Chewwie, that Golden pimp robot, and the little wheelie bin that whistled at the princess. Not the charisma free ham sandwich with a light saber.

I seriously cannot believe that we are stuck on a piece of dryer lint like Luke Skywalker. When I said that can't be the real problem, I meant it. That is the dullest character in the series, and one of the dullest in movie history. He's so boring that even his incest was just bleh.
So your argument is "I don't like the character, so they can do whatever they want to him/her".

Brilliant.
I don't think there's a real colour of skin at all for a mermaid, I suspect them of being fictional creatures.

Why remake any movie at all? If the original is being remade, the purpose is to make money, and the decision to not use new IP has been made already. So in that context, why does it matter if a remake that is going to be made anyway because Hollywood cannibalises its back catalogue as a business practice, should include a superficial change to the skin colour of an imaginary creature that doesn't exist?
Show White is a fictional character. Is it okay to remake her as black?

Shaft is fictional character. Is it okay to remake him as white or chinese?

Does 'equality' of representation require remakes with different races, genders, skin colour? To be fair.
Are they going to make a movie about Henry VIII and make him black? What does that achieve?
They probably aren't. Rumour has it thatHenry VIII was a real dude though, so I am rejecting the analogy. Not that I would really care if they did do it.
So you wouldn't care if Nelson Mandela was played by a white actor.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: The Culture Wars

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

MikeNovack wrote:Your ridiculous hyperbole is disgusting. The non-depiction of people of color where people of color present is their objection, not a demand that they be depicted where absent.

AND YOU KNOW THIS.
Phyllo wrote:You are mistaken.

Black actors (and other races) now play white people.
The social issues referred to here are tough to sort through. It is certainly true beyond all doubt that up to the 1950s and 1960s that the Black race in America was marginalized and excluded. What is very hard for the North to face, though it was the engine of abolition is that, strangely, Blacks in the South were, in an excluded manner, still included in a more encompassing social system.

There existed Southern apartheid and yet the Black race was in their own land and culture where they had roots and a position in the social system. When Blacks went north to escape the constraints of Southern apartheid and for work, they found in the North a more intense attitude of exclusion that was quite brutal and alienating.

This is one of the embedded hypocrisies of America. It can best be expressed by reference to Abraham Lincoln’s attitude toward the Black race of which many (most?) are not aware. Lincoln was adamantly opposed to the notion of slavery of man by man. His commitment had a Biblical intensity. His was a absolute commitment to the idea that human bondage was evil.

And yet he held these opinions:
"I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races ... I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."
Now, you may be able to imagine the soul-twisting irony that there is a religious monument to Lincoln in the Nation’s capital that is a place of civic-spiritual pilgrimage. Lincoln worked for years behind the scenes attempting to set up a plan by which the Black race would be expelled from America’s soil to either Africa or Central America (the East end of Panama was considered).

In America’s ‘civil religion’ certain Stories are told. These Stories have a function even though they are not quite true. The mythology presents the notion of Lincoln as an intrepid activist for the sacred rights of man, but it was not really (quite) like this. The North conquered and occupied the South and as I said the South was the North’s first neo-imperial project of attempted “nation building” and the imposition of norms.

The North more simply understood could not tolerate a sister-nation in control of the significantly developed South with enormous agricultural production and also controlling the mouth of the Mississippi. It is easier for we moderns to grasp cynical national motives so from our perspectives of realism we can grasp “hypocritical motives” and the need for “propagandistic narratives” — i.e. the mythological stories of America’s civil religion.

Now, you have to understand (as you visualize the Northern power), that the effort to remake the South was to a significant extent to destroy it. You can think of America’s more recent actions in say Iraq and Afghanistan to illustrate potentially this dynamic. And in this context you must understand “resistance” by the Southern population to this project of invasion and domination. It is not hard to understand that all peoples, under all circumstances, will always resist and oppose domination. In the context of the “reconstruction project” a will to resist reconstruction developed. Pathological to a degree, but certainly predictable and “all-too-human”.

Now, why go into all this? What possible reason? There are good reasons! To examine the fundamental currents that define America, these explain America. You have to understand the motive behind the eventual creation of America as ‘multicultural nation’ under the aegis of a driven Northern power-system. This is where Americanism develops a sharp pointedness and America shows itself as driven by the sword of assumed righteousness. Just as the conquest and domination of the South was early Northern America’s righteous project, but really a project of mixed motives, so must the evolution of the Northern power be understood.

Now, in our present, and developing as a corporate-governmental project defined by national corporatism in the 1980s and 1990s, America’s Multiculturalism project has matured to the point where alternatives are inconceivable. Any hesitation, any resistance, any doubt, is interpreted and defined not only as antidemocratic but as a manifestation of retrogressive evil. The State in this sense has defined Laws that oppose any objection to its “project”.

It is in this sense that Bowdens “grammar of self-intolerance” can better be understood. I did not say accepted (nor instituted) but only better understood.
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phyllo
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Re: The Culture Wars

Post by phyllo »

China and India have huge film industries as do many other countries.
I saw a wonderful Chinese film called 'Farewell my concubine'. Not a single black, white or brown person in it, and it went on for HOURS. How dare they! Ditto a film set in Afghanistan (no 'blacks', 'whites' or Asians). You need to report this blatant racism to the appropriate authorities immediately!
Don't forget Japanese films.

There is a pressing need to remake the Kurosawa catalog with non-Japanese actors.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: The Culture Wars

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Remember my dearies (said with inflection of Fagin) we are attempting to discuss The Culture Wars and “wokism” and to do so fairly is a daunting task. Because why? Because all seeing and all statement-making in our present is constrained and determined by ideological determinants and restrictions. It is as Bowden says: You cannot even think outside of the established parameters of politically-correct thought.

When you do so, something in you rises up to snap at and destroy the coalescing thought. There is a sort of circuitry that had been installed at a pre-conscious level that keeps certain thoughts from arising.

You get it? The mechanism and regulations of censorship in the external order presuppose an internal order of self-administered thought-control.

What is “woke” and “wokeness” is (in certain aspects and seen in a certain way) the willed increase or intensification of a doctrinal attitude toward right-think.
Iwannaplato
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Re: The Culture Wars

Post by Iwannaplato »

phyllo wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2026 12:58 pm There is a pressing need to remake the Kurosawa catalog with non-Japanese actors.
Well, in a way this has been done with quite a few of his films.
Seven Samurai – The Magnificent Seven (1960 & 2016)
Yojimbo – A Fistful of Dollars (1964)
Yojimbo – Last Man Standing (1996)
Rashomon – The Outrage (1964)
Ikiru – Living (2022)
High and Low – High and Low (2025)
Iwannaplato
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Re: The Culture Wars

Post by Iwannaplato »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2026 1:05 pm It is as Bowden says: You cannot even think outside of the established parameters of politically-correct thought.
Especially when it is both the right and left politically-correct thoughts you want to move outside of. That said, I don't think it's that hard. But perhaps for others.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: The Culture Wars

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2026 1:06 pm
phyllo wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2026 12:58 pm There is a pressing need to remake the Kurosawa catalog with non-Japanese actors.
Well, in a way this has been done with quite a few of his films.
Seven Samurai – The Magnificent Seven (1960 & 2016)
Yojimbo – A Fistful of Dollars (1964)
Yojimbo – Last Man Standing (1996)
Rashomon – The Outrage (1964)
Ikiru – Living (2022)
High and Low – High and Low (2025)
Are these remakes any good? They redid The Browning Version (not Kurosawa but a favorite of mine) and (I thought) it sucked …
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phyllo
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Re: The Culture Wars

Post by phyllo »

Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2026 1:06 pm
phyllo wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2026 12:58 pm There is a pressing need to remake the Kurosawa catalog with non-Japanese actors.
Well, in a way this has been done with quite a few of his films.
Seven Samurai – The Magnificent Seven (1960 & 2016)
Yojimbo – A Fistful of Dollars (1964)
Yojimbo – Last Man Standing (1996)
Rashomon – The Outrage (1964)
Ikiru – Living (2022)
High and Low – High and Low (2025)
Yes.

But they changed the time and place so that non-Japanese characters are appropriate. They don't just plop white actors down into medieval Japan.
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phyllo
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Re: The Culture Wars

Post by phyllo »

Are these remakes any good? They redid The Browning Version (not Kurosawa but a favorite of mine) and (I thought) it sucked …
I prefer the Japanese versions. But Kurosawa was so great, it's hard to equal or outdo him.

'Magnificent Seven' 1960 was a really good movie.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: The Culture Wars

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

phyllo wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2026 1:30 pm ‘Magnificent Seven' 1960 was a really good movie.
I’ll have to watch it.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: The Culture Wars

Post by FlashDangerpants »

phyllo wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2026 12:36 pm So your argument is "I don't like the character, so they can do whatever they want to him/her".

Brilliant.
You cut out my argument and ignored it. You have spent too much time with Immanuel Can and he is starting to rub off on you.
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phyllo
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Re: The Culture Wars

Post by phyllo »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2026 2:21 pm
phyllo wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2026 12:36 pm So your argument is "I don't like the character, so they can do whatever they want to him/her".

Brilliant.
You cut out my argument and ignored it. You have spent too much time with Immanuel Can and he is starting to rub off on you.
You cut out most of my response and ignored it.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: The Culture Wars

Post by FlashDangerpants »

phyllo wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2026 2:23 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2026 2:21 pm
phyllo wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2026 12:36 pm So your argument is "I don't like the character, so they can do whatever they want to him/her".

Brilliant.
You cut out my argument and ignored it. You have spent too much time with Immanuel Can and he is starting to rub off on you.
You cut out most of my response and ignored it.
What's the point when you are trying to ignore the important part of my position to argue trivial shit?

And even then, I've questioned this skywalker claim and how they "destroyed" him or whatever, and you provide nothing on even that matter.

I said fictional creature not fictional character. The fictional creature of mermaid could be any colour that a fish or a person could be. There simply isnt a proper skin colour for a mermaid. Your counters are all based on fictional or real characters, for some of whom skin colour would be important and for some of whom it probably wouldn't.

None of that shit really deserves time or effort if you aren't going to finally admit that issues of represention in Hollywood didn't just go away because you stopped worrying about the ones that didn't peronally affect you.
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