South Africa: difficulty getting good information

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Skepdick
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Re: South Africa: difficulty getting good information

Post by Skepdick »

BigMike wrote: Tue May 20, 2025 8:19 pm
Skepdick wrote: Tue May 20, 2025 8:11 pm
BigMike wrote: Tue May 20, 2025 7:19 pm Alexis, I appreciate that you’re being direct—but let’s be equally clear about what’s happening here.

You say you’re not making “value judgments about the worth of individuals,” yet you frame entire populations as primitive and insist their only viable path to progress is through absorbing “Western” training, as if their own cultural frameworks are fundamentally incapable of producing modern governance or economic systems. That is a value judgment—just delivered with a calm tone.

Calling a people “primitive” and asserting they must be reshaped by those you deem “advanced” fits perfectly within the historical architecture of civilizational superiority. You can claim neutrality all day, but when you assign the role of teacher to one group and student to another—universally and permanently—you’re not describing progress. You’re describing a hierarchy.

As for “the real facts”: centuries of imposed inferiority thinking already did immense damage to African societies. The path forward isn’t to reassert that framework under the banner of realism. It’s to build systems that value indigenous knowledge, foster global exchange, and create conditions for self-directed development—not tutelage under a supposedly superior culture.

Facing reality shouldn’t mean surrendering to old prejudices dressed up as practicality.
On a scale of 1 to 10 your idiocy is slowly climbing towards 15.

Create conditions for self-directed development?
Who's going to create those conditions? The very people that are supposed to self-direct? Aren't they already self-directing using their indigenous knowledge? What's missing in the equation for success here?

That moral high horse of yours...
Skepdick, thanks for making my point clearer than I could.

Yes, the people who have been historically excluded should be the ones shaping their future—but that doesn't mean they should be left alone with no support, while the playing field remains rigged by centuries of extraction and marginalization. “Self-directed development” doesn’t mean isolation—it means giving people agency, resources, and the respect to lead in defining what development means for them.

You’re mocking the idea as if the only options are Western paternalism or total abandonment. That’s a false binary—and a lazy one. What's missing isn't intelligence or drive; it's equal access to land, capital, infrastructure, education—and a global system that values their contributions instead of reducing them to “primitive.”

You can call it idiocy if that makes you feel superior. But all you’re really doing is sneering from the sidelines while others try to build something better. That moral high horse you mention? It’s not high—it’s just standing upright, while yours is buried in cynicism.
What binary, moron? Self-direction includes the decision of whether they want your help or not. Whether they want your resources or not. Whether they want to participate in the global economy or not.

Do they even want your education? What's wrong with their indigenous knowledge?
Where did the infrastructure, education and capital go?

You sure keep making a whole lot of decision on behalf of those whom you've decided should self-direct.

This is no cynicism, you see. This is a straight up "Shut the fuck up already, you dumb cunt! You have no clue what you are talking about!"

What you are doing isn't "building better" - it's preaching. So it's pretty clear you think you are superior to the people with actual skin in the game.
BigMike
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Re: South Africa: difficulty getting good information

Post by BigMike »

Skepdick wrote: Tue May 20, 2025 8:25 pm
BigMike wrote: Tue May 20, 2025 8:19 pm
Skepdick wrote: Tue May 20, 2025 8:11 pm
On a scale of 1 to 10 your idiocy is slowly climbing towards 15.

Create conditions for self-directed development?
Who's going to create those conditions? The very people that are supposed to self-direct? Aren't they already self-directing using their indigenous knowledge? What's missing in the equation for success here?

That moral high horse of yours...
Skepdick, thanks for making my point clearer than I could.

Yes, the people who have been historically excluded should be the ones shaping their future—but that doesn't mean they should be left alone with no support, while the playing field remains rigged by centuries of extraction and marginalization. “Self-directed development” doesn’t mean isolation—it means giving people agency, resources, and the respect to lead in defining what development means for them.

You’re mocking the idea as if the only options are Western paternalism or total abandonment. That’s a false binary—and a lazy one. What's missing isn't intelligence or drive; it's equal access to land, capital, infrastructure, education—and a global system that values their contributions instead of reducing them to “primitive.”

You can call it idiocy if that makes you feel superior. But all you’re really doing is sneering from the sidelines while others try to build something better. That moral high horse you mention? It’s not high—it’s just standing upright, while yours is buried in cynicism.
What binary, moron? Self-direction includes the decision of whether they want your help or not. Whether they want your resources or not. Whether they want to participate in the global economy or not.

Do they even want your education? What's wrong with their indigenous knowledge?
Where did the infrastructure, education and capital go?

You sure keep making a whole lot of decision on behalf of those whom you've decided should self-direct.

This is no cynicism, you see. This is a straight up "Shut the fuck up already, you dumb cunt! You have no clue what you are talking about!"

What you are doing isn't "building better" - it's preaching. So it's pretty clear you think you are superior to the people with actual skin in the game.
Skepdick, you're flailing now—insults in all directions because you’ve run out of substance.

You ask where the infrastructure, education, and capital went? Here's a clue: they were stolen, extracted, hoarded, and locked behind systems built to exclude. That’s the historical context you mock because it’s easier than confronting it.

You say self-direction includes the right to reject outside help? Absolutely. And that’s exactly the point—support should be available, not imposed. The irony is that it’s not me making decisions for anyone; it’s you who keeps ridiculing any effort to enable choice or rebuild fairness. You defend exclusion with one breath and call any attempt to rebalance it “preaching” with the next.

And no, I don’t think I’m superior to anyone with skin in the game. I think people who inherited advantage and respond with rage, slurs, and threats when asked to acknowledge that fact are afraid—afraid that fairness might mean they lose their edge.

You’re not defending reality. You’re lashing out to protect a rigged status quo. That’s not strength. It’s fear wearing arrogance as a mask.
Skepdick
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Re: South Africa: difficulty getting good information

Post by Skepdick »

BigMike wrote: Tue May 20, 2025 9:02 pm Skepdick, you're flailing now—insults in all directions because you’ve run out of substance.
My substance amounts to deeds, not words.

If you had any substance of your own you wouldn't be the recipient of any insults.
BigMike wrote: Tue May 20, 2025 9:02 pm You ask where the infrastructure, education, and capital went? Here's a clue: they were stolen, extracted, hoarded, and locked behind systems built to exclude. That’s the historical context you mock because it’s easier than confronting it.

You say self-direction includes the right to reject outside help? Absolutely. And that’s exactly the point—support should be available, not imposed. The irony is that it’s not me making decisions for anyone; it’s you who keeps ridiculing any effort to enable choice or rebuild fairness. You defend exclusion with one breath and call any attempt to rebalance it “preaching” with the next.

And no, I don’t think I’m superior to anyone with skin in the game. I think people who inherited advantage and respond with rage, slurs, and threats when asked to acknowledge that fact are afraid—afraid that fairness might mean they lose their edge.

You’re not defending reality. You’re lashing out to protect a rigged status quo. That’s not strength. It’s fear wearing arrogance as a mask.
OK, so where is the substance here? Am I supposed to respond to your abstract theoretical moralizing bullshit?

You are the typical IYI
BigMike
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Re: South Africa: difficulty getting good information

Post by BigMike »

Skepdick wrote: Tue May 20, 2025 9:17 pm
BigMike wrote: Tue May 20, 2025 9:02 pm Skepdick, you're flailing now—insults in all directions because you’ve run out of substance.
My substance amounts to deeds, not words.

If you had any substance of your own you wouldn't be the recipient of any insults.
BigMike wrote: Tue May 20, 2025 9:02 pm You ask where the infrastructure, education, and capital went? Here's a clue: they were stolen, extracted, hoarded, and locked behind systems built to exclude. That’s the historical context you mock because it’s easier than confronting it.

You say self-direction includes the right to reject outside help? Absolutely. And that’s exactly the point—support should be available, not imposed. The irony is that it’s not me making decisions for anyone; it’s you who keeps ridiculing any effort to enable choice or rebuild fairness. You defend exclusion with one breath and call any attempt to rebalance it “preaching” with the next.

And no, I don’t think I’m superior to anyone with skin in the game. I think people who inherited advantage and respond with rage, slurs, and threats when asked to acknowledge that fact are afraid—afraid that fairness might mean they lose their edge.

You’re not defending reality. You’re lashing out to protect a rigged status quo. That’s not strength. It’s fear wearing arrogance as a mask.
OK, so where is the substance here? Am I supposed to respond to your abstract theoretical moralizing bullshit?

You are the typical IYI
Skepdick, calling someone an "Intellectual Yet Idiot" isn’t a rebuttal—it’s just a lazy label used when you don’t want to engage with the substance you claim is missing.

You asked questions. I gave answers grounded in historical fact and the idea that justice requires agency and fairness, not handouts or domination. That’s substance, whether you like the conclusions or not.

You keep bragging about “deeds over words,” yet here you are—hundreds of words deep, offering no constructive deed, just tantrums, threats, and sneers. If your only “substance” is rage masked as realism, don’t be surprised when people stop mistaking it for strength.
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accelafine
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Re: South Africa: difficulty getting good information

Post by accelafine »

BigMike wrote: Tue May 20, 2025 6:38 pm
accelafine wrote: Tue May 20, 2025 6:35 pm
BigMike wrote: Tue May 20, 2025 6:29 pm

Not quite, accelafine. I didn’t inject the idea of “inferiority” out of thin air—I responded to what Alexis explicitly said:

Poor people (primitive Africans who do not have the cultural, intellectual and economic resources of their European counterparts) require guidance by capable elites.

That’s not a neutral use of primitive. It's directly tied to a claimed lack of cultural, intellectual, and economic capacity—compared to Europeans. That’s the textbook implication of inferiority.

It’s not deflection or projection to call that out. It’s just reading what’s written and refusing to pretend it’s something else.
I don't see the word 'inferior' in anything he wrote. Nice try though :lol:
You're right, accelafine—he didn’t use the word inferior.
Exactly. I'm glad you understand. It must be invigorating to finally admit that you are a racist. The truth will set you free :D
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: South Africa: difficulty getting good information

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

BigMike wrote: Tue May 20, 2025 9:02 pm You ask where the infrastructure, education, and capital went? Here's a clue: they were stolen, extracted, hoarded, and locked behind systems built to exclude. That’s the historical context you mock because it’s easier than confronting it.
I have a couple of thoughts. But first a question: Did you ever read Eduardo Galeano’s Open Veins of Latin America? What about Noam Chomsky’s Year 501: The Conquest Continues? Galeano has been a sort of Bible for Latin American left-progressives for decades. What he teaches, in addition to ‘the facts’ of colonial exploitation, is a politics of resentment. The notion that “opposition” will result in progress (somehow).

Chomsky, with Chomskian detail, describes the processes through which the systems of exploitation were established. And, important to his analysis, is the notion that those systems, established, continue to function in the present (as suggested by the title). Galeano described the infrastructure of most Latin American countries as ‘funnels’: all roads and rail systems from the hinterlands lead directly to the ports where the goods were loaded onto boats and floated off to Europe.

The point is (obviously) to describe ‘reality’ as it is. No one can deny that the real history of Latin America contains these features.

In Latin America, among ‘intellectuals’, an idea revolution has taken place. The type of analysis of the Galeanos has been significantly outgrown. Certain people noticed that when left-socialist type governments were elected they got power on the basis of the Galeano-Exploitation model. But in every instance they could never build economies. They were excellent at mining social resentment but failed totally at building strong economies. This is universal.

The problem with the principle features of your social philosophy, which I expect derives from a thorough inexperience in the Third World, is not that your analysis is wrong — your analysis is Marxian and as a model it is not imagined. The funnel-system is not imagined. The problem is that it allows for an inclination toward socialism and also communism and these are antithetical to what is needed to build strong economies in the present.

The class capable of building a viable state is not a class that employs socialistic or quasi-communistic models. But they do build strong economies even when pockets of poverty remain. Frankly Colombia is an example. And take a moment to compare Colombia to Venezuela, a mostly failed state.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: South Africa: difficulty getting good information

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

It is wonderfully lyrical, a political poetry of sheer pity and horror. It goes on and on and on just like the following quotes. (It tends now to still capture the student-class, at least for a time.)

I hear you in this!
The Latin American cause is above all a social cause: the rebirth of Latin America must start with the overthrow of its masters, country by country. We are entering times of rebellion and change. There are those who believe that destiny rests on the knees of the gods; but the truth is that it confronts the conscience of man with a burning challenge.
Latin America is the region of open veins. Everything from the discovery until our times, has always been transmuted into European--or later--United States-- capital, and as such has accumulated on distant centers of power. Everything: the soil, its fruits nad its mineral-rich depths, the people and their capacity to work and to consume, natural resources and human resources.
Our defeat was always implicit in the victory of others; our wealth has always generated our poverty by nourishing the prosperity of others - the empires and their native overseers. In the colonial and neocolonial alchemy, gold changes into scrap metal and food into poison.

Eduardo Hughes Galeano, Open Veins of Latin America: Five Centuries of the Pillage of a Continent
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: South Africa: difficulty getting good information

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

NYT article:
Author Changes His Mind on ’70s Manifesto
By Larry Rohter
May 23, 2014

For more than 40 years, Eduardo Galeano’s “The Open Veins of Latin America” has been the canonical anti-colonialist, anti-capitalist and anti-American text in that region. Hugo Chávez, Venezuela’s populist president, even put a copy of the book, which he had called “a monument in our Latin American history,” in President Obama’s hands the first time they met. But now Mr. Galeano, a 73-year-old Uruguayan writer, has disavowed the book, saying that he was not qualified to tackle the subject and that it was badly written. Predictably, his remarks have set off a vigorous regional debate, with the right doing some “we told you so” gloating, and the left clinging to a dogged defensiveness.

“ ‘Open Veins’ tried to be a book of political economy, but I didn’t yet have the necessary training or preparation,” Mr. Galeano said last month while answering questions at a book fair in Brazil, where he was being honored on the 43rd anniversary of the book’s publication. He added: “I wouldn’t be capable of reading this book again; I’d keel over. For me, this prose of the traditional left is extremely leaden, and my physique can’t tolerate it.”

“The Open Veins of Latin America: Five Centuries of the Pillage of a Continent” was written at the dawn of the 1970s, a decade when much of Latin America was governed by repressive right-wing military dictatorships supported by the United States. In this 300-page cri de coeur, Mr. Galeano argued that the riches that first attracted European colonizers, like gold and sugar, gave rise to a system of exploitation that led inexorably to “the contemporary structure of plunder” that he held responsible for Latin America’s chronic poverty and underdevelopment.

Mr. Galeano, whose work includes soccer commentary, poetry, cartoons and histories like “Memory of Fire,” wrote in “Open Veins”: “I know I can be accused of sacrilege in writing about political economy in the style of a novel about love or pirates. But I confess I get a pain from reading valuable works by certain sociologists, political experts, economists and historians who write in code.”

“Open Veins” has been translated into more than a dozen languages and has sold more than a million copies. In its heyday, its influence extended throughout what was then called the third world, including Africa and Asia, until the economic rise of China and India and Brazil seemed to undercut parts of its thesis.

In the United States, “Open Veins” has been widely taught on university campuses since the 1970s, in courses ranging from history and anthropology to economics and geography. But Mr. Galeano’s unexpected takedown of his own work has left scholars wondering how to deal with the book in class.

“If I were teaching this in a course,” said Merilee Grindle, president of the Latin American Studies Association and director of the David Rockefeller Center for Latin American Studies at Harvard, “I would take his comments, add them in and use them to generate a far more interesting discussion about how we see and interpret events at different points in time.” And that seems to be exactly what many professors plan to do.

Caroline S. Conzelman, a cultural anthropologist who teaches at the University of Colorado, Boulder, said her first thought was that she wouldn’t change how she used the book, “because it still captures the essence of the emotional memory of being colonized.” But now, she said: “I will have them read what he says about it. It’s good for students to see that writers can think critically about their own work and go back and revise what they meant.”

Michael Yates, the editorial director of Monthly Review Press, Mr. Galeano’s American publisher, dismissed the entire discussion as “nothing but a tempest in a teapot.” “Open Veins” is Monthly Review’s best-selling book — it surged, if briefly, into Amazon’s Top 10 list within hours of Mr. Obama’s receiving a copy — and Mr. Yates said he saw no reason to make any changes: “Please! The book is an entity independent of the writer and anything he might think now.”

Precisely why Mr. Galeano chose to renounce his book now is unclear. Through his American agent, Susan Bergholz, he declined to elaborate. She said he had gradually grown “horrified by the prose and the phraseology” of “Open Veins.”

Mr. Yates said Mr. Galeano might simply be following in the tracks of the novelist John Dos Passos, a radical as a young man “who became a conservative when he got older.” On Spanish- and Portuguese-language websites, others have suggested that Mr. Galeano, who in recent years has had both a heart attack and cancer, might simply be off his game intellectually.

In his remarks in Brazil, Mr. Galeano acknowledged that the left sometimes “commits grave errors” when it is in power, which has been taken in Latin America as a criticism of Cuba under the Castro brothers and of the erratic stewardship of Venezuela under Mr. Chávez, who died last year. But Mr. Galeano described himself as still very much a man of the left, and on other occasions he has praised the experiments in social democracy underway for the last decade in his own country, as well as in Brazil and Chile.

“Reality has changed a lot, and I have changed a lot,” he said in Brazil, adding: “Reality is much more complex precisely because the human condition is diverse. Some political sectors close to me thought such diversity was a heresy. Even today, there are some survivors of this type who think that all diversity is a threat. Fortunately, it is not.”

Still, Mr. Galeano has caught many admirers by surprise, including the Chilean novelist Isabel Allende, who wrote a foreword for the English-language edition of “Open Veins.” In it, she describes how she “devoured” the book as a young woman “with such emotion that I had to read it again a couple more times to absorb all its meaning” and took it into exile after Gen. Augusto Pinochet seized power.

“I had dinner with him less than a year ago, and to me, he was the same man, passionate and talkative and interesting and funny,” she said of Mr. Galeano in a telephone interview from California, where she now lives. “He may have changed, and I didn’t notice it, but I don’t think so.”

In the mid-1990s, three advocates of free-market policies — the Colombian writer and diplomat Plinio Apuleyo Mendoza, the exiled Cuban author Carlos Alberto Montaner and the Peruvian journalist and author Álvaro Vargas Llosa — reacted to Mr. Galeano with a polemic of their own, “Guide to the Perfect Latin American Idiot.” They dismissed “Open Veins” as “the idiot’s bible,” and reduced its thesis to a single sentence: “We’re poor; it’s their fault.”

Mr. Montaner responded to Mr. Galeano’s recent remarks with a blog post titled “Galeano Corrects Himself and the Idiots Lose Their Bible.” In Brazil, Rodrigo Constantino, the author of “The Caviar Left,” took an even harsher tone, blaming Mr. Galeano’s analysis and prescription for many of Latin America’s ills. “He should feel really guilty for the damage he caused,” he wrote on his blog.

But Mr. Galeano continues to have defenders. In a discussion on the website of the Spanish newspaper El País, one participant noted that in a world dominated by Apple, Samsung, Siemens, Panasonic, Sony and Airbus, Mr. Galeano’s lament that “the goddess of technology does not speak Spanish” seems even more prescient than in 1971.

And on his Facebook page, Camilo Egaña, a Cuban émigré who is the host of “Mirador Mundial” on CNN en Español, remembered meeting Mr. Galeano in Havana in the 1980s and hearing him tell a story about a man taking his son to the ocean for the first time. “In the face of that interminable blue, the child said to the man, ‘Daddy, help me to see,’ ” Mr. Egaña recalled.

“That is what Galeano has done with his book, 43 years after it having been published,” Mr. Egaña concluded. “Thank you.”
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: South Africa: difficulty getting good information

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

A great song however…
We learned to love you
from the historical heights
where the sun of your bravery
laid siege to death

Chorus:

Here lies the clear,
dear transparency
of your beloved presence,
Commander Che Guevara
Gary Childress
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Re: South Africa: difficulty getting good information

Post by Gary Childress »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon May 19, 2025 2:09 pm I am uncertain if this topic will interest the forum much. But since it has been in the news recently I thought it might. I came across this video which seemed to me to present a quite reasonable conversation on the topic of the threat of expropriation.

The reports that have come to me about SA generally give a picture of a country approaching collapse (in some areas) but even these reports I have not been able to verify to my satisfaction.
Wow, the guy calling to his followers for the murder of white South Africans is quite a sobering sight to behold. I hope there is a more productive middle ground to be found in all this.
Skepdick
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Re: South Africa: difficulty getting good information

Post by Skepdick »

BigMike wrote: Tue May 20, 2025 9:54 pm Skepdick, calling someone an "Intellectual Yet Idiot" isn’t a rebuttal—it’s just a lazy label used when you don’t want to engage with the substance you claim is missing.
A rebuttal? What is there to rebut? Where is this substance that you claim exists? So far it's just platitudes, superlatives and the cookie-cutter philosophical verbiage so generic and abstract it betrays your ignorance.
BigMike wrote: Tue May 20, 2025 9:54 pm You asked questions. I gave answers grounded in historical fact and the idea that justice requires agency and fairness, not handouts or domination. That’s substance, whether you like the conclusions or not.
Please cite the African historical records you used for your historical answers. It would be a shame if you are just regurgitating the very Western norms which failed Africans.
BigMike wrote: Tue May 20, 2025 9:54 pm You keep bragging about “deeds over words,” yet here you are—hundreds of words deep, offering no constructive deed, just tantrums, threats, and sneers. If your only “substance” is rage masked as realism, don’t be surprised when people stop mistaking it for strength.
Yeah, I am not in the habit of mouthing off "constructive deeds" from armchairs about problems I am too far removed to understand deeply enough let alone solve.

So here's the only constructive deed I have for you: shut up. You are taking up too much space for an ignoramus. This simply isn't the platform. Or the audience.
BigMike
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Re: South Africa: difficulty getting good information

Post by BigMike »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed May 21, 2025 12:22 am
BigMike wrote: Tue May 20, 2025 9:02 pm You ask where the infrastructure, education, and capital went? Here's a clue: they were stolen, extracted, hoarded, and locked behind systems built to exclude. That’s the historical context you mock because it’s easier than confronting it.
I have a couple of thoughts. But first a question: Did you ever read Eduardo Galeano’s Open Veins of Latin America? What about Noam Chomsky’s Year 501: The Conquest Continues? Galeano has been a sort of Bible for Latin American left-progressives for decades. What he teaches, in addition to ‘the facts’ of colonial exploitation, is a politics of resentment. The notion that “opposition” will result in progress (somehow).

Chomsky, with Chomskian detail, describes the processes through which the systems of exploitation were established. And, important to his analysis, is the notion that those systems, established, continue to function in the present (as suggested by the title). Galeano described the infrastructure of most Latin American countries as ‘funnels’: all roads and rail systems from the hinterlands lead directly to the ports where the goods were loaded onto boats and floated off to Europe.

The point is (obviously) to describe ‘reality’ as it is. No one can deny that the real history of Latin America contains these features.

In Latin America, among ‘intellectuals’, an idea revolution has taken place. The type of analysis of the Galeanos has been significantly outgrown. Certain people noticed that when left-socialist type governments were elected they got power on the basis of the Galeano-Exploitation model. But in every instance they could never build economies. They were excellent at mining social resentment but failed totally at building strong economies. This is universal.

The problem with the principle features of your social philosophy, which I expect derives from a thorough inexperience in the Third World, is not that your analysis is wrong — your analysis is Marxian and as a model it is not imagined. The funnel-system is not imagined. The problem is that it allows for an inclination toward socialism and also communism and these are antithetical to what is needed to build strong economies in the present.

The class capable of building a viable state is not a class that employs socialistic or quasi-communistic models. But they do build strong economies even when pockets of poverty remain. Frankly Colombia is an example. And take a moment to compare Colombia to Venezuela, a mostly failed state.
No, I haven’t read Open Veins of Latin America or Year 501—though I’m familiar with the general arguments both books make. And you're right to point out that resentment by itself doesn't build anything. Diagnosing injustice is only the first step. What follows has to be policy, competence, and long-term vision—something many leftist movements, especially in Latin America, have struggled to deliver on once in power.

But let's not throw out the diagnosis because the treatment was botched.

Yes, Chomsky and Galeano may describe exploitative systems, and yes, those systems still shape the present. You call this a "Marxian" framework, but it's just historical continuity: wealth extracted over centuries doesn’t vanish, and its absence leaves structural holes. Acknowledging that isn’t advocacy for communism—it’s a call to stop pretending bootstraps are evenly distributed.

You say the class that can build viable states isn't socialist. Maybe not doctrinaire socialists, no—but neither are they indifferent to justice. The most resilient societies today blend market logic with social investment, inclusivity, and public trust. Look at Costa Rica. Or even, in some ways, post-apartheid South Africa—when it seemed poised to do both redistribution and growth, before corruption and factionalism wrecked the trajectory.

So yes, I take your point seriously: resentment alone corrodes. But denial of historical imbalance does, too. The real work lies in threading the needle—building strong, future-facing economies without burying the truths that got us here.
Skepdick
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Re: South Africa: difficulty getting good information

Post by Skepdick »

BigMike wrote: Wed May 21, 2025 7:06 am Diagnosing injustice is only the first step.
It can't be the first step unless you are sanctimonious about what justice is.

Thread that needle between justice and injustice for us? Why is redistribution done TO a demographic "injust"; but redistribution done BY a demographic "just"?
BigMike wrote: Wed May 21, 2025 7:06 am The real work lies in threading the needle—building strong, future-facing economies without burying the truths that got us here.
Applause lights!
Applause lights!
Applause lights!

:roll:

You'd certainly make a good politician; just be clear on who or what your scapegoats are when your grand rhetoric meets practical reality.
BigMike
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Re: South Africa: difficulty getting good information

Post by BigMike »

Skepdick wrote: Wed May 21, 2025 7:09 am
BigMike wrote: Wed May 21, 2025 7:06 am Diagnosing injustice is only the first step.
It can't be the first step unless you are sanctimonious about what justice is.

Thread that needle between justice and injustice for us? Why is redistribution done TO a demographic "injust"; but redistribution done BY a demographic "just"?
BigMike wrote: Wed May 21, 2025 7:06 am The real work lies in threading the needle—building strong, future-facing economies without burying the truths that got us here.
Applause lights!
Applause lights!
Applause lights!

:roll:

You'd certainly make a good politician; just be clear on who or what your scapegoats are when your grand rhetoric meets practical reality.
Skepdick, you’re right to call out vague rhetoric when you see it—but threading the needle between justice and injustice isn’t applause lighting. It’s just hard work that doesn’t fit into slogans, and yeah, it’s easier to roll your eyes than wrestle with complexity.

You asked: why is redistribution to a group called “justice,” and redistribution by a group called “theft”? Fair question. The answer lies in context and power. If a group gained wealth through centuries of exclusion, benefiting from systems others were locked out of, then redistribution aimed at repairing that legacy isn’t theft—it’s course correction. But if a group uses power to entrench its own advantage at others’ expense—without any historical or moral grounding—that’s not justice, that’s just a new imbalance wearing different clothes.

You can’t measure justice by who’s doing the redistributing—you measure it by why, how, and to what effect. That’s the difference. And it’s only visible if you’re willing to look past the cheap binaries and do the harder work of historical and moral accounting.

But sure—if mocking the language helps you sidestep that work, be my guest. Just don’t pretend cynicism is clarity.
Skepdick
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Re: South Africa: difficulty getting good information

Post by Skepdick »

BigMike wrote: Wed May 21, 2025 7:26 am Skepdick, you’re right to call out vague rhetoric when you see it—but threading the needle between justice and injustice isn’t applause lighting. It’s just hard work that doesn’t fit into slogans, and yeah, it’s easier to roll your eyes than wrestle with complexity.
Don't you get that sense of irony, choking you like a cock at the back of your throat, when you are preaching wrestling with complexity to a complexity theorist?
BigMike wrote: Wed May 21, 2025 7:06 am Fair question.
The ANC would certainly disagree with that assessment. Isn't that just circular reasoning?

You haven't threaded the needle between fairness and unfairness for us. So how have you measured the "fairness" of the question?
What if it's an unfair question and you are just mistaken. Can't you wrestle with complexity?

BigMike wrote: Wed May 21, 2025 7:26 am The answer lies in context and power.
Well sure. The context is 2025 and the political power has changed hands.
BigMike wrote: Wed May 21, 2025 7:26 am If a group gained wealth through centuries of exclusion, benefiting from systems others were locked out of, then redistribution aimed at repairing that legacy isn’t theft—it’s course correction.
Heyyy, look! It took you virtually no time to sneak in group identity into the equation. So how do we determine who was; and wasn't part of the group which benefited "unfairly"? How do we determine who should' and shouldn't benefit from contemporary redistribution circa 2025?

Given that whites are effectively excluded from the higher echelons of the economy via BEE policies; and given that whites have no political power isn't that systemic racism circa 2025?

Isn't it unfair that race is now the deciding factor when having to do business with two equally competent individuals or businesses?
BigMike wrote: Wed May 21, 2025 7:26 am But if a group uses power to entrench its own advantage at others’ expense—without any historical or moral grounding—that’s not justice, that’s just a new imbalance wearing different clothes.
Ohhh "grounding". That stupid Western philosophical idea that has gotten us nowhere in thousands of years.

Would you say that any employer leveraging the time-value of money and hiring people at an hourly rate far lower than what the boss pays himself is "entrenching own advantage at other's expense without historical or moral grounding"?

How do you think labour pricing should be grounded?

BigMike wrote: Wed May 21, 2025 7:26 am You can’t measure justice by who’s doing the redistributing—you measure it by why, how, and to what effect. That’s the difference. And it’s only visible if you’re willing to look past the cheap binaries and do the harder work of historical and moral accounting.

But sure—if mocking the language helps you sidestep that work, be my guest. Just don’t pretend cynicism is clarity.
More applause lights! More!

I am mocking the language which expresses all platitudes - without communicating any actual work.

You can't do any accounting - simplistic or otherwise; unless you provide us with the accounting framework you are using. Could you tell us the principles of accounting you are accounting by?
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